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The Mishlei Podcast
The Mishlei Podcast
Mishlei 25:25 - The Pleasure of Cold Water and Good News (Part 2)
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Mishlei 25:25 - The Pleasure of Cold Water and Good News (Part 2)
מַיִם קָרִים עַל נֶפֶשׁ עֲיֵפָה וּשְׁמוּעָה טוֹבָה מֵאֶרֶץ מֶרְחָק:
Length: 29 minutes
Synopsis: This morning (5/14/26), in our Morning Mishlei shiur, we didn't come up with any earth-shatteringly new approaches, but we refined some points in our understanding from yesterday and we explored a few new angles. It was admittedly a "scraping the bottom of the barrel" type day, since the meforshim didn't have much to say, but still valuable and interesting!
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מקורות:
משלי כה:כה
זרחיה חן
ר' משה אלשיך
ר"י נחמיאש
שולחן ערוך יורה דעה תב:יב
שד"ל - משלי כה:כה; ישעיהו לז:כה
הואיל משה
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Okay, so we are on day two of Michelle 2525. Um Mayim Karim Al Nepesh Ayefa Ushmutovim eritzmerch. Um I have a new translation uh which we'll go into in a little while, but first we'll review cold water on a weary soul or a parched soul and good news from a distant land. By the way, I saw a good raya that it means parched, um, in the Ho'il Moshe, who quotes a pasuk. Where is he? Well Moshe quotes a pasuk, I'll nefesh ayefa tsamea, I'll dare be eret siya va'ayf, a land that is narrow and parched. It does not mean weary. So that's the kind of raya I like where it is what kind of bothers me is when is when uh Mufarshim quote a pasuk for a raya for what a word means, and the proof they quote is just as ambiguous as the original one, but this one's like a pretty clear thing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um okay, fine. All right. So that is uh a translation. Uh all right. So our questions were what does Nefish mean in this context? What is Nefesh Ayefa? What makes it that way? What is what effect of Mayim Karim on Nefesh Ayefa is being described in the first half? Um, four, what is shmua tova? And what kind of shmua and in what sense is it called tova? Um five, why Dafka from a far-off land? Uh, does this phenomenon not happen at all from local news or does it happen? And Eric Mirafak is an extreme case. Uh, why not all news, especially given how difficult it was to get news then? Um, I want to tack on a question which I was thinking about as well, which we kind of talked about yesterday, is um how do we translate um uh news from a far-off land uh into modern uh terms, not in modern terms, into the modern world, right? In other words, I think you could make an argument that geographic distance is no longer relevant, right? I mean, I think that's pretty clear. Like, like there are people who I am more in touch with who are far off than people who are like close by, you know. Um, so like I think we have to just think about that as we fly. Were you gonna brought up social media? Yeah, right, right. So that's like an example of that, is uh, you know, um, so I just want to have that on our radar explicitly.
SPEAKER_04I think I think a lot of finds, I think we said that like you but you don't make them a thaia mason right? That's a good raya, right? Now it's like you wouldn't just like not know someone's right like um we're still thinking of news. Yeah, no, it's about 16 people.
SPEAKER_01Right, exactly. Yeah, that's a good, that's a good raya. All right. Uh six, what's the relationship between the two halves, especially given, especially because the puzzle doesn't spell it out? Seven, what is the practical decision-making advice, especially given the fact that we can't really control when we hear such news? Uh eight, who's the audience? Uh is it the giver or the recipient of the news? And then nine, is this connected to the surrounding Pacific? So we we we kind of played with different approaches, but um ultimately boiled down to my approach. Uh, I mean, there are variants here, but my approach was that um if you take IAF as actually exhausted or weary, so water doesn't solve that. It just brings you temporary relief by momentarily distracting you in a pleasurable way from the other sorrows that you have. So there's a certain element of detachment from reality in it, in the sense that it doesn't, it's not, you wouldn't say, for example, that there's a uh, yeah, like a lasting to Ellis, you know. Um, so so too, when you get news from close, you know it's attached to reality and you see it in the context. But when you get news from far away, it's just this isolated piece of of like purely good, pristine news. And like you can very easily take it in a way where you're getting the pleasure out of that fantasy and not connecting it to the reality. So this is saying you should be aware of that phenomenon. Now, does that necessarily be bad? No. You know, you should like it it's obviously fine to like enjoy that news, but you just have to ground it in the reality, or sorry, you have to realize that it's not grounded in reality and then take that accordingly. Um right, okay, that was our basic approach. Then we did Mesus David, who mentioned that it's Davka cooling you off from heat. So that's a slightly different idea, which is we said that it's not just a positive pleasure, but it is a pleasure that's dependent on the relief that it brings. So you should realize that part of the why you enjoy Shmuatova is because it brings you relief from the sorrows and the pain and conflict and toil and all the other stuff that is in your life. And so if you're using it as an escape, that's bad. But if you're just momentarily indulging it, then that's fine. And then the last idea that we did was the Mi'iri in the Nigla is that you might think that when someone moves away, that's it for the relationship. But you can refresh and sustain it through seeking out good news from the other person. And then we did the Mi'iri and the Derek Nister, which is what I want to uh look into in a little while. First, I I did look at the Mefarshim. Well, I want to warn you, today is going to be a scraping the bottom of the barrel day. I did not find that many ideas, uh, like new ideas. But um, I wanted to say that two points that were made by Mafarshim that are uh adjacent to what we did is Zrachi Khain. He says, Shikomine ha hanaos, kesheim baos pesa peace, the peta pisom, uh adam, hem yoser gadolos ugumuros, the hanaa, mishar ha hanaos, shabbaos me'a ubanachas. So types of pleasure that come to a person immediately and without warning are greater. I would use the word more intense and complete. I don't know what he means by complete, I don't know if it's like all encompassing, than pleasures that come little by little and gradually. But shmua shot me eras mirochoka, in adam yodea mi mena, shumdavar ashitagia pitom. A person doesn't know anything about it until it arrives. So he doesn't spell out what the application is. So can we just think about that for a second? Because I I like that because it it it also seems to be like a good distinction between close news and far news. And it is related to what I was saying, which is that with news that's from close, you see the build-up, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um with a lot of enjoyment. Um degree of enjoyment that you have is based on the contrast between what your expectations were and reality. And so then with most enjoyment uh you know, most like good news, you like have some awareness that something is happening and then there's already some defined expectations. Right. Well then it's just going from 100%. Right. Entirely just you know um unexpected.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah, that's a good description. Now the question that that raises for me is, you know, it also seems like um there's a setup where you create anticipation and then that enhances the pleasure, right? In many cases, in fact, right? Like if you are um I don't know the first uh idea that comes to mind is uh you go to a rest uh fancy restaurant that you've been looking forward to for a while, and then you order from the menu, and like there's all this anticipation building, and then you get the pleasure. Whereas if someone just like does a drive-by stake giving and gives you a steak, like you know, like it it it might be enjoyable, but it's not as pleasurable because there's not that anticipation.
SPEAKER_04So I think there's maybe a difference between physical pleasures and some news. Okay, because you're enjoyable the news all psychological. Right, okay. And then so um like when you have anticipation, then when the news arrives, it's it's also new, you know. Right. And because you're already you've already adjusted to that life leaving the reality.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh. Interesting. Okay. So does this change anything? I feel like this does slot into our idea. Um one application at least is like if you're delivering good news, then springing it on someone as a surprise, according to this, is more intense and more enjoyable. Right. Yeah, I don't know. All right, so I just want to bring that up. And then the other one, I I never go to this commentator, mostly because I don't I don't like his approach, but Rav Mosha al-Shik. Okay, so he says something interesting, uh, which may or may not be related. Yomar, and I don't know if this is physiologically true, by the way, but Kamo Maim Karim Al Nefish Ayefa via geah, Shitsar Nuach, Sha'a Osh Oshnaim, uh Shaim uh Terim Yishdeh, henhakrius, harav shabba bagufo, who ayavia geazi keno. Just like if someone is really weary, uh, he needs to rest for a little while before he drinks because the coldness could damage his body. Okay, now obviously there is such a thing as you get an abrupt change in temperature from hot to cold, and that could be bad for you. But I don't know about drinking. I don't know if you need to wait for an hour or two, but whatever. We'll go with this uh premise. Um, there was a guy in Yeshiva in my day who was very uh he did a macrobiotic diet, which uh seemed to me to be a mix of like actual um like good advice and like pseudoscience or like outdated ideas. And I remember his thing was that you should not have anything cold when it's hot. You know, that was like his uh, which I think is a thing that people like thought of in the olden days, you know. Um, so I uh that that was what this brought to mind. Like it's like damaging to you, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it must be. Um, so he says, uh so so too. I don't know if that's supposed to say Gemara. I don't think Gamara Gemara like fits here. The gamara? When it I don't I don't know what it is, or maybe he's using Gemara in the literal meaning of like when he receives it. I don't know. All right, so so his first point is that it's damaging when you get good news from far away. Okay, now this that that I didn't like, but this other one is the one I liked. Ohyomar, kmim karim anefh ayefa, shisha ish hu ayef via gea, khaki shmu to me erit mirachach, buhu shalotismach lev etzem vhuhu kim kamaim karim ayef viagea shhi arvulovia nuhu daito bisha soso efar kriusum taziplo achakach. So this I think is a little bit similar to uh to the approach we were taking. He says that that the shmu to from eritzmirach does not essentially make the heart rejoice, rather, it is like cold water on a weary soul that the pleasure comes from being m you know uh settling your mind when you drink it, but then the coldness can damage you afterwards. Now, this is where he deviates from our idea. It's possible that the news changed by the time it got here. So he's trying to make it so that maybe the news got to you and the news got distorted, and the distortion, if you rejoice in it, is gonna lead to harm because it's not actually corresponding to the reality. So, again, not exactly like what we were doing, but he's trying to put it in the framework of this is a warning that don't just take the thing at face value, recognize that it may have changed and it might be harmful to you. What I would say if we applied that kind of like warning to ours is don't take the good feeling that you get from the news at face value, recognize that there might be reality that is that provides more complete picture and that this is not necessarily the best thing, you know. Yeah. Okay, let's do new translation. So we have another rarity here, which yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um sorry, I just wanted to ask, do we have do we have any sort of shot for thirsty?
SPEAKER_01I mean, the closest we had, I think, was the Matsous David who said that the cold it's not just the coldness of the water, it's the fact that it's quenching the thirst and it's removing a pain, you know, and that that's part of the pleasure. And and I think that does fit in with our idea with the fantasy that it's removing the pain of the humdrum life or the problems that you have, you know.
SPEAKER_04Okay, yeah. I have a translation question about uh for for that, which is um why is it all Nymphish A file? I think if it's autumn, you're sold that it's like putting it on the bottom, but if it's your perps, then I think you wouldn't say like drinking cold water, you wouldn't say all in the I don't think you'd say all Nymphish AE first.
SPEAKER_01I have no idea. Same way as when you say in English, it really hits the spot. Like really it hits it? Like it's an idiom, you know. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Uh I just started thinking of the broccolo for uh store that we hear the news.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they talk about that also.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah, but I wonder like what I guess I wouldn't have my I thought about before the stuff, I wouldn't have had my ideas, but I wonder if the idea that brought it is different now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I I saw one uh again, another another of the Mufarshim again, scraping the bottom of the barrel here, that I don't usually do is Nidrish Mishle. Uh no, uh Yahushimoni. Um Taninan. So we're taught in a uh, I think this is a Mishnah. Al Gushamim Valhabsuros Tobos, I think it's the uh uh Mishnah in Brachos Parak 9. Uh Omer Bruchatova Metiv, right? Uh so on good news, uh sorry, on rain and on good news, you say Hatova Metiv. Rebibrachia Bishem Reshlakish, I assume, Mice La Minhacha. So they bring a riot from our passive. Maim karim anefhasha, tova mere's mirchach, mash muatova hatova metiv, afmaim karim hatova metiv. So they learn, so it's interesting that they learn out. It sounds like the primary bracha is on good news, and then they learn out for rain from there. So there might be a halacha idea or an idea into the inside into the braca there. That's all I got for you from from that. Oh, also uh, I saw a shocking halacha. Okay. So in the Rinach Miyas, um who is in the packet, he starts off by saying, um, Ha Ayev Haygea Harbev khajims meim. Um so ayf is someone who's extremely uh exhausted, and all uh Yegim are thirsty. So he he kind of combines the two meanings. Um Lamayim for water. This is what got me thinking about this the modern day thing. That from Eritrova, its news is just daily events. Of all Eretz Mirchak, mis abahadam lishmoamashmuz tovos. So there there's a taiva to know what's going on. So I that's why I think that like you know, but you could argue also that that same thing, like when we look and see what is going on in Iran, like or in Israel, is that is that current events because we get the news every day, or is it Erit Mirakov because we have a Taiva to know it and it's not just automatic? I just don't know how it fits in.
SPEAKER_04If you don't hear about it every day, then then then is there Yeah, right, right, that's true.
SPEAKER_01Now he he does tie this to advice. So he the advice he says is it's good for a person to announce good news and to refrain from announcing bad news. So I thought it was an interesting application here. You know, I don't see that. I mean, I guess you kind of see that in the puzzle by the implication is if someone's very thirsty, then providing them with cold water is good. So too, providing good news is good, you know. But that's not the shocking halaqah. The shocking halaqah is in the footnote. So he says Mikhos Libanazar, but psachim gimmel bees amr almavasar basura ra ummoti diba huxio. Okay, so that's apparently Gamar Psachim. Someone who gives good who gives bad news, he quotes the post uh one who expresses slander is a fool. Okay, that's strange. For this reason, you should refrain from giving bad news. Okay, so I looked up this halakha, and this is a shocking halakha. Okay, and I I I don't know of anyone. I've never heard this done. Um it's in the second to last chapter of Yordea, which is an area I'd never go to. Uh-huh. Dinshmua Krova vrcholka. This is in Avalus. So someone who oh, sorry, that's not what I want. This is not if you got news of someone died. Okay, last halaka. Someone had a relative die and they didn't know about it. You're not obligated to tell them. So we bring this down to the halakha. Okay, it says someone who expresses slander is a kxil, um mutter lahaz minol sudas erusin when he's stuck in call simqa. You can invite him to simkas, okay, came and shaken. Because he doesn't know. If he asks you, by the way, did my father die? You shouldn't lie to him. But you shouldn't tell him. Uh Shinemar Mizbar Shakar Tircha. And then he says, Um, this is the Ramah. Nevertheless, uh Baban Bizkarim with male uh uh offspring, nagu lodia, we the minhog is to tell them. Yeah, kadeshiyomru kaddish, so that they say kaddish, not even like for like, I don't know, like inheritance purposes or like mourning your parents, you know, keep it off aim, whatever about babanos, but with daughters, aim in a kla lodiam. There's the the minog is not to tell them. So like imagine back then where if a woman gets married and she moves to a far-off land, you know, and you find out that her parents died, you just just don't tell her. It's just like crazy, you know. Yeah, Isaiah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I remember learning this with Rab Pilachowski and he said Reb Rasina Adler was careful not to, he would tell people like not to tell him about things like this. Like he would he didn't want to know, and he would like kind of people he didn't want to know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So like I feel like this merits thought, you know. And also why Mozi Deba, who's you, I mean Deba, flame shot deba is slander, you know? Which which if you're saying true news, it's not slander, you know. I have a radical idea. Okay, this is very radical. Yeah, right, okay, fine. There's there's my mouth here. Um so um to a certain extent okay, there is such a thing as reality. Okay, that's my premise. But radical. Yeah, but to a certain extent we live in our own world. Right? Meaning you live the world you actually live in is the world that is based on your knowledge and your feelings. Okay, so for example, if something happens in reality, again, let's take this case. If a parent dies, the death doesn't affect you. But the conduit of it affecting you is the is is knowing about it. You know, so to a certain extent, and I I know this is influenced, this is the thing I'm worried about here. Is in a certain extent this is influenced by Sam Harris and his meditation app, uh, who puts a big emphasis on like consciousness is the only, he goes to the he talks in language as if consciousness is the only reality. I think that could be dangerous, you know, but I get where he's coming from, where where at the end of the day, you are living in your own consciousness. So to a certain extent, when you deliver news to someone, you are creating reality for them because you're making it possible for the external reality to connect to them. And the way that you frame it also is what shapes their the their reality. So there, in other words, there we tend to think of the difference between slander and MS as a qualitative night and day thing. One is true, one is false, which is true. That's a true statement. But where are slander and bad news uh similar in that you're shaping someone's perception through your words?
SPEAKER_04I don't know where to go with this, but yeah, I think I'll tie it into an idea about love tomorrow. Okay, yeah. I think there is a there's truth. Yeah, um like the way that you're changing something, but the way that like the person perceives things is not like with with don't we like don't mean um like he everything that he told you was true.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But but um Who um he he said true things in a way that would shape show's understanding of real like perception of reality in a horrible way.
SPEAKER_01Right. So um I have been slowly going through and changing all the AI art that was made in my from my that I made for my articles like three years ago that looks outdated to modern art. So this is the new piece. I don't know if I shared this in the chat that I created for Rogilis. Yeah, I did, yeah, right. So um so I I liked it because it is depicting, you know, this guy witnesses a conversation, then he cuts it up and rearranges it and then puts it back. And the pieces he's using are real, right? But the way he's editing it and what he's leaving out in the context is gonna change the meaning, you know. So yeah, yeah. So this bears more thought, I think. Um, I want to do really quickly a new gotten that without your explanation. Well, you would have if you read the article, because the article, the article says that exact idea, and so that's why the uh yeah, that that's why that's why it works.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I thought I thought for sure. I was like, oh, that's great.
SPEAKER_01Okay, good, yeah. Um, so uh we have a rare appearance of Shadal, okay, who it seems did not write a full commentary on Michael. I don't know if this is like notes or something. So he says, Karim, so he does not translate as cold. Okay, noslim minha makor. He says, water that flows from the source, lots on an im not cold. So in in in yeshaya, he says, Shoresh kor nemar al yitsias ha maim minha makor. So I mean you can see it's related, makor and kor. Uh, it means it comes from the source. When a person who is uh weary on the way um finds water uh like a wellspring, who same behemoth, he's very happy. Uh, and so to uh strange waters that are from the source that flow, karim, karavla noslim. Karim is close to noslim because flowing water also implies that there's a source there. Elashabitzkilasim, karovla makor, nikraim karim. But when they're close to the makor, they're called karim. But when there's a lot of water, it's called noslim, like a river, you know. So, and you can see why I I mean, presumably he would say that like, or maybe that karim was borrowed from this because the water from a source, a wellspring is colder. So I was wondering, and by the way, the reason why I like this is it fits into the next pasuk, Mayan Nirpas Ummakor Mashkas, Sadig Matlibne Raja. And that is about a wellspring. So I think that works out. But the question is does this change our um our approach? So Shadal is um like fresh, yeah, water fresh from the spring on a parched soul. Okay. Um so so to me, there's a certain incongruity here because water from a far off land is like the opposite of news from a far off land is like the opposite of water fresh from the source. Like it's not from the source, you know, if it's from far off land. And he doesn't explain, he just says the words. And by the way, the uh Hoyel Moshe, not surprisingly because he's a Talmud, um, says the same thing. He said for uh karim minamakoram, I don't know what he kihut dakori akbish in a small stream like a spider web, Visham terem tishemesh ham karim vitsonanim, and before the sun warms them, then they are uh cold. So he's saying, like I guess like the the trickle of water, you know. Maybe that is a clue. The trickle of water is like the good news from a far-off land.
SPEAKER_04I I don't think that's at all. I think might be someone talked to our argument, but um the refreshing side of it. More on the pristine.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_04It's fresh from the source. It hasn't picked up other adulteres or pollutants. Like it's not like you know, this is like a river. It's it's picked up water siltans, yeah, like other things, debris, you know, things in it. You know, right. You know, maybe you can still drink it, but like yeah, it's just uh other like other adulterants. Right. Um whereas if it's fresh from a source, it's just like pure clean water.
SPEAKER_01Right in the so that's good, but then now how is that like oh so meaning are you saying then that the same way that news from a foreign land it it does not have all the adult rents? Oh yeah, you're saying it fits into the RD. Okay, I got it. Yeah, yeah. All right, that's good. Um, I want to really quickly go back to the Derek Nister of the Mi'iri. I mentioned this yesterday that uh that this ties into a uh puzzle I taught in um on Monday. So Mi'iri said in our pa on our puzzle that um Shmota Valius call in a Hanasunim Lilvabos Bedir Kabbalah, Afa Drive Shabbat. So so it's talking about getting philosophical truths through the Kabbalah, okay, through Mesora. Um Klumer Shlema uh Vikara Tova Klomer Schlema Umro Allah Tor Sham Timima, Clumar Sh in Davar Minat Sarek the Emunos Khaser Mimena, Lobus Lamus Amidus Hamalos, Bahizar, Mehakkan Lubosh Limus Sicilios, Hyunos Kabolios Bom Miras Mirchak Yasaka Sorim Hayunim Shaba, Bahasagasam Adam Akar Hakdamas, Aruhas Batzaos, Belimukama Kahnos. So um from the far off land is talking about the philosophical matters, uh the speculative matters in it, that they come to a person after a lot of introductions. But umr shakoshik, ladas, shmu atoba, meeras mirchak, or ladas had muskalim, shabba der hakira viun bazagaso, yimsa minukas emes minucha shaba bahashke, ayef bemotzao mind karim. Um so, in other words, if you're looking for philosophical truths, then it will be uh as enjoyable to you as um as someone who gets like water, um, because why? Uh some hacheshik pochmalayhos and fish, but yeah, you know what? I'm actually not gonna have time to go. I I wanted to read the um uh in Michlay 1724. That idea does pair very well with it, but uh it's gonna take too long to read and analyze it, so I'd rather not. Yeah, okay. All right, so this is uh we ended up getting a good idea, just not not new, uh so many new ideas today, but uh I'm happy with the puzzle. Okay, until next time. Oh, next week. Next week should work. Yeah, all right.