Mishlei 25:23 - The Relationship Between Secretive Speech and Anger (Part 1)

Mishlei 25:23 - The Relationship Between Secretive Speech and Anger (Part 1)

רוּחַ צָפוֹן תְּחוֹלֵל גָּשֶׁם וּפָנִים נִזְעָמִים לְשׁוֹן סָתֶר:

Length: 45 minutes
Synopsis: This morning (4/22/26), in our Morning Mishlei shiur, we learned another cryptic "straight-up mashal" pasuk. Although we weren't quite sure what to assume about the meteorological facts, we did our best and came up with several fruitful approaches which provided insight into how to avoid several categories interpersonal conflicts. We also scoped out the commentaries of Saadia Gaon (in part), Metzudas David, and Ralbag. Tomorrow (בג"ה) we'll see what the other meforshim have to say.
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מקורות:
משלי כה:כג
תרגום ופירוש רס"ג
מצודת ציון/דוד
רלב"ג
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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Okay. Michle 2523. Ruachapon Techhol Goshem Upanim Nizamim Lushon Saser.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

Northern Wind.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Yep. Northern Wind. So here are two translations. Like uh Yochole. Techul is uh we had that recently, not we, but we had that recently in um Tehilim. Which one was it? Yeah, Ayalos. Uh that's 29, I think. 29. Uh so there it meant to uh cause the Ayalos to like uh writhe in terms of uh like giving birth. So that's one. Um Bdb also says it might mean to make strong. Uh if Moshe Rosenthal were here, uh he said he's not feeling well, but if you were here, I would ask him, um, where in uh does he use this term? Do you know?

unknown 1:16

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Okay, so what came to my mind is um in Hazeno, Batishkov Kel Macholaleka. So there it means to create. Okay, so we'll uh we'll see what the um what the the uh you know um minimalist translations say. Okay, Upanim, uh sorry, so so blank uh Geshem uh rain, right? Upanim nizamin, lush and saucer. Za'am. I think it's anger. Uh I think, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:50

Like, isn't that like earthquake or something?

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Yeah, yeah. So I I wonder if if it's tremble, okay, indignant. Uh angry speech, roar of a camel. Okay, um, yeah, okay, so let's just translate it as uh um yeah, uh an angry face, I guess. Lush and saucer. Sealed tongue. Uh yeah, I think hidden is probably better. Oh, did you say concealed? Yeah, yeah, concealed tongue, yeah. Concealed tongue. I thought you said sealed.

SPEAKER_04 2:21

I didn't say sealed, I didn't say sealed.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Okay, uh concealed tongue, yeah. Okay, very weird. Let's see what the Minmal Farshim say. We've got Mitsudas Tion who says um tahhol, inon briya. So he goes, um Briya, like I said for uh Hazinu, uh the holada, and giving birth. Oh, it's actually these both. So that's the connection here. So um let's say begets, right? That's probably a good one. Yeah, begets rain. Uh oh, kumohein the agon holati. That's what Dovny Melok says. Uh I was uh birthed in sin, right? Um anger. All right, uh, so Sadigon said according to Kathek says, Rua Kmushu Rua Hatsafon Nisalekes Hagushan. So he takes Tekholal as the opposite, right? So just as um just as a north wind uh uh causes rain to depart. I feel um I don't think so. I think well maybe hollow, right? Like to hollow out, like it removes something from I don't know. Um yeah, I'm not sure. Uh it's hard to tell which one's the primary meaning here and which one's the derivative and how. Um lipanim ha zoafin. So are so is uh is a so are uh uh that's weird. I wonder how he gets rahim, right? So are gentle words to an angry face.

SPEAKER_04 3:59

Like manera kash penguin?

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Mani rah, yeah, right, right. But I'm saying, like, how does he get it from saser? Lasham saser. Like I don't know how saser means private later. Yeah, that could be. That could be. Um by the way, I don't know if if I'm just ignorant here, but uh um, you know, punim in Hebrew is plural, right? I don't know if this means a face or if this means faces, and I don't know how you would say both. I don't think so either. It's just weird, right? Yeah. Um okay. Yeah, yeah. Oh, is that is that plain shot about no, it's not. All right, uh okay, targo. Oh no, sorry, and then um rev Amram uh not Amram Gone, um uh Amram Kora, right? That's his name. Uh says Tkola is um Mila uh Timna is to withhold. Okay, um, so I guess um or prevents, right? Uh uh causes rain to depart or prevents rain. Okay, I don't know if that's uh the same thing or not, but it seems like he is taking a different stance than Kafka. Uh and then uh Saser is Benachas Vahasvara, is gentle, which means um with gentleness and explanation, I guess. Okay, fine. So gentle not, I guess he's taking it not in um what do you call it? Not in attitude. Uh well, maybe not in attitude also. I was thinking not in tone, but in content, right? Um uh content-wise, I guess. Yeah. Okay. Targum Rucha Garvisa Batsna Mitra Hichna Op. I'm I'm not patient enough to translate this. All right, we'll we'll look at this if need be. I'm not gonna look at it in the gas road now. I always forget to look at the the targum, uh, the uh jasper before I come here. All right, anyway. Um all right, uh so uh Artskull says, as the north wind brings forth rain, brings forth is another good one, so does stealthy slander. So this using lush, I guess, is like lush and of Malkin, Malchinim, like or not slander, but um I mean, yeah, like this is I guess it's the closest one. Um, so does stealthy slander bring forth an angry face. Okay. Rehearse says the north wind brings rain and a secret whispering tongue. So it's a stance there, uh, angry faces, and Aldrich says the north wind brings on rain and an angry face, a secret of tongue. Okay, we'll keep all these because uh who knows. Um yeah, um, so okay, so uh the the one of the difficulties also is there's no I mean, yeah, I guess we do have to say this whole. I mean, you have a I'm trying, okay. In other words, Techol is definitely something we have to insert in the second part, right? But it seems like there you could read it both ways, right? That a uh gentle word, sorry, um stealthy slander, no, they all oh yeah, stealthy slander brings forth an angry face. No, no, I guess all these translations go this way. What was I thinking though? Uh Sadigone? Yeah, Sadigon. Yeah. Sadigone says that it's the other way around, right? That uh so I guess yeah, maybe this is a question then, right? Is that I'm just trying to think how to hold on a second. So North wind begets rain, but an angry face uh to a concealed tongue. I guess I'm trying to preserve the ambiguity in the translation.

SPEAKER_03 7:36

Is it always gonna be and meaning whatever you hold about in the first map seemingly the same in the second?

SPEAKER_00 7:42

I don't know. Uh it seems like not, right? It seems like Sadigon, right? Am I missing something here? Sadigon, a ruchon removes geshen, so that's ruach and geshen. Kakha devarim harachim lipanim ha zoafim.

SPEAKER_03 7:56

Removes it also.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Oh, yeah, right. Okay, I guess so. Yeah, yeah, right, right. Oh, yeah, Isaac.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Alter seems like he's taking the concept of relationship the other way.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

And an angry face is secretive tongue. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. I think yeah, but I think that is the best way to preserve the ambiguity, right?

SPEAKER_04 8:20

What does it mean? An angry face is secretive tongue.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

This is just listing nouns, and it's I I think he is deliberately trying to uh uh a northwind brings on rain. So you could read this as and an angry face brings on a secretive tongue or a um or an angry face is brought on by a secretive tongue, I think, right? Yeah, all right. So let's just make this into a question here, which is that um well yeah, what is the causal direction of the the two um I guess what is the what is the yeah, causal direction slash um subject and object in the second half uh in relation to the first half. Not the smoothest way to say this, but uh yeah, I think we'll we'll get what we mean here. Yeah, yeah, Mosha.

SPEAKER_04 9:08

Um I this sound like the premo, but usually when reading like older poems or like purple pro, you know purple pros? No, okay, it's like over overt flowery, whatever. In general, whatever I read like flowering languages, like all their songs that influence like directions, yeah, right? I always think like I have a sense that like north south or old circuit is supposed to mean some symbolic significance, but I never know what those symbolic significance is.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

So, what is the significance of a north wind?

SPEAKER_04 9:43

Yeah, but general, what is the significance of old directions then?

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Right. So I don't need to do that because it's I'm I'm guessing that north wind was an actual different kind of wind in Israel that has some sort of definite relationship with the rain, although don't tell that to Sadigon because he's saying that uh it removes the wit the the rain, and he wasn't in Israel, right? He was in Bavel. So uh maybe he doesn't know, but I I don't know. Yeah, yeah, sure, sure.

SPEAKER_04 10:10

I mean this thing, I mean, can we just symbolize from this or are I are we actually gonna have to know like what I think we have to know what north wind is, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

I mean, the I guess the the place where you have some leeway is if in the derethnister then suffone is being used for a specific reason. So, for example, what does suffone literally mean? Hidden, right? Um, and I guess they called the North Subhone because it was like unexplored. That's my always been my assumption. Um, and so maybe in the Derech Nister, there would be something, some reason why it's using that. Yeah, Isaiah. Can't hear you. I feel like we've had this problem recently. Uh let's see if you get your settings.

SPEAKER_04 10:58

It lowers the temperature.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Lowers the temperature.

SPEAKER_04 11:00

It doesn't ever come from the north.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Oh, from the north. Yeah, interesting. Oh I can hear you now, yeah. I think.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Okay. Well, I was just gonna say like the regions to the north of Israel are more more wet and less it's air than Israel, and so if wind's coming from the north, then it would bring in sort of like some of the weather from that region. That's the right thing. Oh, okay, fine.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

So that's just where the where you find rainy weather, I guess. Yeah, all right. That that that's that's fair enough as far as I can get. Yeah. Okay. Um, so I get I mean, I guess like how does a north wind uh uh bring on rain, right? Um by the way, it does seem that the meaning that everyone is saying is to bring on. It seems like those other two translations in the um uh BDB were not really the right ones, unless you want to say strengthen, you know, is what it means, but yeah. Yeah, I say you have something else or is that from before? I didn't see if your hand went down and up again. No? Okay. All right, uh Upanim Nizam Lash N Saser. Right? So what is the uh what are panimizamim, right? Um in this context. And I guess also like why attribute it, why ascribe it to the to the punim, uh, as opposed to just saying uh, you know, causes anger, right? Uh you don't need to say like harun off, I feel like is a general expression for anger, even though it references the nose. But I feel like you could say, you know, yaleaf, right? That's how Michel usually says it. Panim sounds like it's introducing deliberately the uh the face here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

My assumption is that rain is good.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Right.

SPEAKER_03 12:39

Is an angry face good?

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Okay, yeah, yeah, right, right. So what are we supposed to guess? What is the connotation uh of um Techolil Geshin here? Uh isn't rain good? If so, are we supposed to assume that Panim Nizopim is good, right? Presumably not, presumably it's the Lashon Sacer effects, the Lushon Sasser's effects on Panimizavim, right?

SPEAKER_03 13:08

So nothing all that it brings forth rain. I mean, sorry, that it prevents rain.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

Uh right, correct. Yeah, uh is good. Um uh or are we supposed to assume that the lushon sausair uh bringing or removing rain, or I guess bringing rain, rain is good, and then if so, what does Sajigon hold? Right? That's the real question, also, right? That's the the most direct question on uh your point is this is most directly on Sajigon, that if rain is good, right? Yeah, um, what is Sajogon hold? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:46

Also, what is the connotation of Lashon Saucer?

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Yeah, what is Lashon Saucer? Uh what are the denotation and a connotation of lash and saucer, right? Uh, what are the denotation and connotation of lashon saucer? Yeah, and that seems to be where our English translations are the most um diverse here, right? Secretive is like neutral. Secret whispering tongue sounds negative, right? Stealthy slander is definitely negative. Um, but yeah, I mean, it seems like again, Alter seems like he's the that's yeah, I guess uh secretive.

SPEAKER_04 14:23

Positive way of saying private isn't oh you mean like would be positive as opposed to neutral or just this could be slander if it's a one-on-one, just an important conversation.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Good question. I mean, I would have said lush and saucer, right? I mean yeah, I'm not sure. And I also feel like if they're whispering, like lachash is really how you say whisper, right? So um okay. Uh I guess we have to ask what's the subject of the Pussuk, right? Uh uh, not not very clear. I mean, I guess anger speech relationship between the two. Uh, you know, obviously, what is the mushroom? What are the mushrooms and yeah, who's the audience? Uh, who is the audience? I guess the question is gonna be uh some uh you know the the would-be speaker or the I guess use the lashara trio, right? Uh the person spoken about uh or the um the listener?

SPEAKER_05 15:32

There's a question of what are they speaking about?

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Yeah, right. Um what what is being spoken about? Yeah, David?

SPEAKER_05 15:41

I think it's what Moshov is just asking right now. Um with the Lashon sat there, is that because of is the thing that's going to be uh Mizaif, the Panim, is that because of, as Mosh was saying, like what the content of the speech or the fact that it is being said and sat there regardless of what it actually is?

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Right, right. Okay, so um what specifically about lawn saucer uh is um uh causes the za'am, uh the content or the saucer quality uh or the combo. Right. And you could say, like, for example, that it just means the content, but you know that the content is bad because otherwise, why would it be spoken in saucer? You know, like or you could say that you know it's both. Yeah, okay. So we can we I feel like we got the main questions. We uh I mean practical application here, right? What is the practical application? But yeah, now I guess we're just in speculation mode here about what direction we want to go. Yeah. Yeah, Isaac. Uh I have an approach. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

So um just like so. I'm I'm just gonna just take it a uh step with the mushrooms in the in the the first half. That where there's a a northern wind, it's a type of wind where you're like, oh, feels like rain. Yeah, you know, you so you know the rain's gonna come.

SPEAKER_04 17:07

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Um, even though there's no like concrete signs of rain yet. Right. Um so so too, if you are if if someone or if you or someone else is um is giving off like an angry face, meaning like you're uh uh expressing anger, that's gonna make it so that um that's gonna cause uh people to you know be uh talking secretly, meaning like they're not gonna um be forthright with whoever it is that uh is expressing the anger because they know it's not a safe environment to uh to talk.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

So that's good.

unknown 17:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

So the the angry face kind of heralds uh secret conversations.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Yeah. Okay, that's good. An angry face heralds secret conversations. All right, so that's a good that's a good trial. So let's yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:01

Um if you're comparing glass and to angry, isn't there a different word and humor for like specifically like batterings or like harder rings?

SPEAKER_00 18:12

Sarah is really a storm, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:15

I'm not saying the rain's bad. It's just a comparison.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Yeah, right. Where there's smoke, there's fire kind of thing. Right, right.

unknown 18:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

I mean, that that'd be a question, also, by the way, of why why use this specific mushle? Uh, because I feel like I'm sure there are gonna be approaches that take that into account. But I I actually don't know if there's a different word for Gajam, because don't we say um uh when you say I always forget what the actual halakh is, I always have to look it up in the back of the sitter, but if you say uh Majiburu can be the Geshem in the wrong season, like Reg's problem, but it says like because Geshem in the wrong season is right as a claw, right? Yeah, but I do I don't know, I don't I'm not familiar with a term that we use. No, but those are both good. No, no, right, but I'm saying like Moshe was asking, is there a term for Geshem that is Dafka bad? That's what I'm saying. Yeah, I'm not familiar with the I'm not even gonna frame code. Yeah. Yeah. Um okay, right. So let's just think about this and see if there are any other nuances or uh uh so is the the wind causing the rain or just the sign of the rain. The wind is a sign of the rain, the way he's he's looking at it.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

Yeah, so too the angry faces.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Oh, I see. Okay, no, you know, so sorry, let me go back again. Oh, the wind, yeah. The wind causes the rain, and therefore it is a sign, right? Uh and so too, angry faces uh not so too. Angry faces will cause people to talk secretly.

SPEAKER_03 19:44

But in other words, uh it is it causes an emotional reaction, though, at least to be a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Yeah, yeah, right. Right, right, right. Meaning it's so much of a cause that you can treat it as a sign, you know, that and so too. So I get uh Isaac, did you have something in mind about who this is for?

SPEAKER_01 20:03

I think that it's for someone who might want to express anger. Okay then you know that if you do that, then there's gonna be like secret conversations, you know, like it's it's gonna bring that.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Okay, right. So who wants to express anger uh and telling them that this will give rise to secret conversations? And and then uh I I think this is an important question, but I I have an answer, uh, which is uh so what? So what what would you say?

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Or what would anyone yeah? Uh and then you you can't trust what anyone is saying after if you know because they're not gonna be forthright with you and um having conversations behind your back. There's a lot of negative consequences to that.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Okay, yeah. So I I think this is also gonna be multiple negative consequences, but I would put them all under one heading, which is that that this will uh inevitably result in communication issues, right? Uh, which is so for example, um people will be afraid to speak openly to you because they know you're angry. Um people will speculate about why you're angry, uh, and that may lead to um to bad decisions or at least um fragmentation. In other words, people making different assumptions about why you're angry. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:35

Um, yeah, good question. Just for Isaac, um is is northern wind, I mean are you saying when you say when do you feel northern wind, you know rain is coming to you there? Are you saying that's like a factual thing, or are you just taking that as a premise on the puzzle?

SPEAKER_00 21:50

He's uh assume he's taking it from as a premise, as a factual premise on the puzzle. You know, like the puzzle is stating that Ruch Zaffon gives rise to Geshen. So we're assuming that that's true.

unknown 22:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

And according to this, by the way, going to your other question, according to this, Safon does not matter at all. It could have just said it could have said, yeah, but like we're assuming that he knew what he was talking about. Because he's Shlomo, right? Yeah, he was in Israel. Or Khizgiao, Andre Khizgyao, yeah, whoever came up with it. Yeah. Okay, this is a good um, sorry, I said tongue. Uh this is a this is a good uh good approach. Next one, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:25

Uh I only just have a have a it's not like an idea, it's just a way for to translate uh so yeah. Um but could it instead of maybe could it be referring to like passive aggressive language? Because that's kind of like way of speaking. Interesting. But uh and it's not what other people do, it's super angry.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Yeah, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_04 22:47

It's not a novel idea, but I don't know if really if it's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Um perhaps Lush and Saucer uh sorry, Lush and Saucer is passive aggressive speaking, uh where you're um hiding the true or attempting, right? You're attempting um attempting to hide the real intent behind um words that are uh, you know, I guess uh what do you call it? Nice on the surface, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

I have a different approach. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

But it's we'll keep this and we'll brew this and keep it in mind, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:24

It's pretty sensitive. Maybe everyone is gonna be still. But maybe one way to understand this is that a both friends decided to go that the northern wind threads right, is that let's say rain is coming and then you have basically a wind which pushes it away.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:40

So too, if you're angry, if you have an angry face, then instead of expressing your anger, it's giving you advice that you should speak privately, meaning don't express anger in an act in active way, but privately speak to the person you're angry with or something like that. And that'll push away your anger and you basically settle.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

Okay, good. You should speak privately to the person you're angry with, uh and uh and that will uh be the best course for removing your anger. Yeah, anger. Yeah, it is interesting. Let's just think about that for a second. Um, why like can we get a more specific piece of advice than like is it just saying that if you exhibit your anger, then you'll run into all these problems that, you know, it's not really the same problems as what Isaac is saying, but let's say, like, you'll you'll escalate the situation because number one, you're making it public, which is going to put the other person on the defensive, you know. Uh, it's also going to make you more prone to uh digging in your heels. Um, and like let's say you, you know, like this happens all the you know all the time, is that the person who's angry finds out that they were basing it off of a uh uh um you know incorrect information, but then they still feel the need to like justify their anger because they don't want to look like an idiot at having the uh being angry for no reason uh or at making a hasty judgment. So if you address it in private, then you are like having those problems off of the pass, right? Is that like yeah, okay, that seems good, okay. Right. In other words, um if you express your anger publicly before conversing with them in private, um you run the risk of escalating the situation, either, or I guess whether because they'll be on the defensive. Uh or if you were wrong, you might double down. Uh double down out of out of shame, uh out of shame, right? Is really shame, I think. Um or you'll you'll get other people involved uh and create you know strife or drama. I think that's another thing. Uh or you'll uh embarrass them uh and make matters worse that way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:10

I think another aspect stands for the saucer is the launch.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:14

Meaning as opposed to acting and hitting MR.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Right. Oh, hold on. Yeah, he also we have to remember Satan says, I wasn't remembering he says gentle words, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, so I guess hold on a second. Uh speaking privately and gently. Was that what the uh Amram Korov says? Oh no, just gently and and uh Hasbara, right? Um yeah, okay, that's good. Uh wait, sorry, what did you say? Hold on, I just lost the train of thought.

SPEAKER_03 26:38

I was saying lushone is another aspect as opposed to action.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

Uh okay, yeah, yeah, right. Okay, right, right. Um, so clarification is saser as opposed to public and lushon uh as opposed to action. Yeah, Isaac.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Um just one more aspect of this. Yeah. Is that I think exerting the self-control to um to you know to speak privately with them as opposed to lashing out of the moment will help you help put you on the path of you know handling it well.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

Yeah, we'll also set you up to handle it well. Yeah. Okay, that's good. Yeah, David. Different idea. Uh you want before we do a different idea, let's actually look at Sadigun and in his commentary and see what he says. Um Sadia Gon Perush. Uh whoa, he connects it to the next one. Okay. Um let's just read it what he says for this one. Khalilas Hageshin hu hashbaso. Okay, so it means stopping the rain. Upirashi lush and sasir had varim harakim. So gentle words. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_04 28:05

Because they do the hidden thing.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

I I I I guess. I don't know. Uh no, because that would be yeah, right. Yeah, they do the hidden thing as the translation. Uvumakum Nizamim Zoafim, he Kaderus Panim, uh Kizaam roges vakas atur al Daga Amukha Vatzvus. Whoa, whoa. I don't know what's going on here. Za'am is rage. Sorry, uh Kizaam Rogez Vakas Atsur. I don't know what this is saying. Kan Madur al Daga Amuka Vatsvus. That's what it sounds like. It's talking about Daga that is deep and and uh sad or grieved. What was the one before this? Oh, this was uh the enemy and the uh coals. Uh I don't know if that matters. And then this next one is Tov Shavis Alpinas Gog Me Ashus Midianim Ubeshaver. Better to sit on the corner of a roof uh than a uh wife who is contentious in a house of friends. Okay, so that's also a provocative uh provocation type uh thing. Yeah, yeah, that's one of the um yeah, that's uh that's a genre of Michel Pasku about uh being with a uh contentious wife. Yeah. Umsukim holalu mina hafuch. So I guess these are two opposites. Okay, fine. So maybe we'll hold off on this then um until uh until next time. Yeah, David, what's your idea?

SPEAKER_05 29:36

Sure. Um I'm taking Lashwan Satra to be the active thing that causes uh to be angry. So I think that um sometimes people will say something quietly or just at least not say something directly to someone because they think that they might not like hearing it. And then if that person sees that this is being held a secret from them, they're going to want to know. And if it is something where they do wind up hearing about it, that is going to cause the fact that it was a secret held from them before is going to make them much more angry when they actually hear about it. It might be something that was not a big deal, but um the secretness like set the stage for this person to get angry. I think in a similar way of the uh northern wind isn't actually like the ring itself, but it's setting the stage for, I mean, so with Mocha was saying like temperatures dropping and things like that. It's setting the stage for rain to precipitate. And I think that the uh people secret will like build up, people will start questioning like what's being said here, why is it being held for me, and then even not a big deal, we'll get them annoyed.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Okay, that's good. Yeah, I think that happens a lot. And uh it's this is like a mislead, oops, sorry, this is a mislayc uh Mita Connected Mida, uh, which is that you your your foolish attempt to avoid provoking the other person actually makes them more angry, right? One one um what do you call it, one example of this that I have experienced a lot in my teaching career, uh maybe because I mostly taught girls, I don't know if it's the same as with boys, but like, you know, girls tend to not like confrontation with, especially with authority figures. So they will, as if there's something that they're upset about, instead of just talking to me directly, they'll either talk to their parents and have them call the school, or they're they'll talk to my superiors, which really annoys me. I'm like, why don't you just bring it up to me first? I we we could have handled this, you know, it's just really, really annoying. And uh and uh it has this exact result. Yeah, we'll be another case here. Um I think another case is that um that um I don't know if we could tie this into the mushroom, but like sometimes the um what do you call it, the not deliberation, that's the wrong word here. What I was gonna say is that sometimes the the secret sometimes, I guess, yeah, keeping keeping this secret from the person causes the resentment uh to fester, okay, which exacerbates the problem on both sides. Um in other words, uh sometimes if you I mean, this is one of the Torah's uh purposes in what do you call it? Uh Lost uh Sisna's that the Torah is trying to get you to talk to the person to nip it in the butt or to resolve the issue or to clear miscommunication. But if you harbor the hatred, then it could just build on your side. And I feel like also if you're talking about this person behind their back or whatever, that can also exacerbate things. And then you got the result that W is saying as well. So it's from you know both angles. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

So what's the mushal in this on the same?

SPEAKER_00 32:53

Yeah, I miss that also. Yeah, what's the mushroom?

SPEAKER_05 32:56

Um, okay. I wasn't as strong on this, but I think that in a similar way that the northern wind isn't actually like the ring itself, but it's bringing about the circumstances in which it's like easy for rings to start falling because of temperature drops and however other things working there are. That it's not the secret itself, like the content itself was not the thing that actually like got the person angry, but the keeping things secret got them in a position where now even some small little thing now becomes a big deal. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Yeah, I I like that. I think that that's that's better. Um, also, there's another thing which is depends on how I think there's another factor where if you're talking about this with a ton of people and then you let the person in on it, there's also a feeling of like, how come everyone knows about this except for me, you know, that can also contribute uh to it. And then there's also an issue of trust, like, don't you trust me to talk to me about it, or you're making assumptions about my character, like a lot of uh lot of causes of this, yeah, Mosha?

SPEAKER_04 33:53

Uh you know, that was funny that Dominion said that because I was thinking based on what I just said and Sargon said that it's saying that if you're specifically in your moments of anger, you cause laws that other otherwise would have been say to be more to now be more uh starting more truthfully. But just like you can only speak in a more controlled manner when you're not angry, you can start saying things that you don't like. Um saying more like secrets or things that you uh don't or think you would you otherwise would have like not said out loud before.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

To other people or to the person who you're angry at. All right, so start one more time.

SPEAKER_04 34:36

If you are saying if you're speaking in uh in private with that I'm just I I missed where where we're coming from and who were whose interpretation we're I I understand don't think about whether it be in private or not, but when you normally when you're talking to someone you talk about more reserved and you don't say full like you don't just aren't talking about all the person speakers or everything you know about them, as opposed to when you're mad, it would remove those safeguards that were.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

Okay, that that's a that's a good factor as well. So um I'm just gonna add this to a uh a free-floating uh note that could apply to multiple things here, is that um ordinarily when you're speaking uh speaking with someone, um you are, I guess when someone you you are angry at, I shouldn't say ordinarily, in some cases, when you're speaking with someone who you're angry at, um you're more selective uh about your words than if you are venting about that person in private, right? Is that the type of thing you're saying? Or like not in private without their knowledge.

SPEAKER_04 35:49

When you're talking about someone, when you're not angry, you're more restrictive, and when you are angry with them, you're more likely to be more impulsive about the words you say.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

When you're talking to directly to them.

SPEAKER_04 36:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Okay. I'm just I'm keeping on being confused about what's the relation between Panim Nizafim and Lashram Saser.

SPEAKER_04 36:08

Meaning that you having that oh meaning that I mean I mean has that muscle that just like northern wind would remove that ring, which is like a which I guess I'm interpreting as like the the lush and saser, which is like a restrictive or sorry, restrictions that you pose on yourself.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:27

And so do you hear that that being angry removes those those uh inhibitors of how you normally speak, and therefore you're gonna be less terrible about like uh saying uh like truth or uh things that like things that you should you wouldn't only say in a conversation, even if they are true, you like wouldn't uh some reason this is not clicking.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

I'm getting the individual components. For some reason, I'm I'm just not I don't know if it's I'm starting at the wrong point or if there's a premise that's not being said. Anyone know what he's saying? Okay, I I yeah, I'm just not I'm not I'm not I'm not hopping. Oh yeah, yeah. Uh okay, let's do the unless anyone has anything else, let's do the Mitsuz David and uh uh and get that. Uh okay, Mitsu's David. Um 23. Ruch Safon. Komosha Ruch T Safoni Mollied Es a Gashem, just as a northern wind gives rise to Gashem, Kane Lash and Hara, a nemra bassesar. So that's where I guess Archskolle got it from. Was it who said Slander? Artskol, I think. Uh Lushanhara that said in in in private, molid panim shall zaam mean ha umural love aha omer from the person who said about uh over the speaker. All right, so this let's just get this uh shot here, and then we'll see what the khidesh is. Uh just as a northern wind uh gives rise to rain, so too does uh lush and hara, um uh which is said in secret, uh uh give rise to anger um uh um from the uh I guess the subject, or I guess the uh the person being spoken about against the speaker. Right. So the question is obviously, right? Duh, right? Uh obviously Lash and Hara makes people mad. Makes people mad. Uh so what's the kiddish? And now the kiddish is is gonna probably have something to do with the secretive part, right? But uh I think that's maybe where you know, like what some of uh some of the ideas have been said saying so far is that it's not the content, like the the the content obviously is makes people mad in Lash and Hara, but the secretiveness is another thing. So I guess the question is like what's the nafkamina then, right? Let's let's get this down. So so um the obvious part is the is is that the content of the speech angers uh the person, uh angers the victim, right? Um the the kiddish here is in the manner of speech, right? The secretiveness uh makes things worse. Right. So this is I mean this is most similar to to Isaac's, but the Isaac was not talking about something that's necessarily Lash and Hara. So I guess like what's the Navkamina case? Uh what's the best Navkamina case um uh to highlight the necessity of this passa? Yeah, Isaac?

SPEAKER_01 39:47

I think sometimes people will say like why why are you upset about it? It's true. You know, and then but you know just just dropping the you know um not realizing the um about how how the context in which it's said makes it makes makes a difference.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

I didn't quite follow maybe because I'm caught up on that first part, is that um I mean I know people think that if it's true then it's not La Shinhara, but if someone like I don't know, I feel like if someone badmouths you about something that's true, I don't think you could really convince the other person it's true. Why should you feel bad about it? Like I just don't think most people think that way. Am I misunderstanding you?

SPEAKER_01 40:33

I think it's sometimes I think sometimes it sometimes it's like bad mouthing. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when someone is recounting, let's say like something that happened you know, where that that does make the other person look bad. But you know, it's like but at least in their mind, it's just a factual like they can't just a factual recollection of what happened.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

Yeah, so I think that that's actually the the the opposite of that is the premise of the puzzle. I think that's why the person says it secretly, because they know that if they say it openly, it's gonna upset the person, even if it's true.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

Yeah, you're right. I think that's a that's maybe a different type of case.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

Right. So then then I think maybe that this could be an in, which is that that why do people speak Lush and Hara, uh Lush and Hara secretively? Uh because they know uh it will upset the person. Okay. So like the thing is is that um I think like if they try to speak it secretively, in other words, uh the the decision to speak secretively means that you that uh the speaker knows they're gonna upset the person, yet they're still not refraining from saying it. Right? So like like it shows that they really don't care about it. They're using the uh not wanting to hurt the other person's feelings as like an excuse, as like a rationalization. I feel like there's you're sensing like the I feel like there's like a contradiction in that rationalization. In other words, so they know it upset the person. So then then why are they saying it at all, right? In other words, the the there's a uh there's a contradiction uh in the rationalization of I'm going to say it uh privately um uh in that this allegedly is meant to spare the other person's feelings. Uh but then why say it at all? Okay. Uh and then this really reveals that they're just trying to escape the the uh the consequences or the blame. Uh and they really don't care about the person's feelings, right? In other words, I I'm not saying this as clearly as I could. That if you really so why do you say it in private? Because you don't want to hurt the other person's feelings. But if you really didn't want to hurt the other person's feelings, you wouldn't say it at all. So the fact that you're saying it means that you really don't care about hurting their feelings and you just don't want to be uh avoid being the one identified as the source of the harm, you know. Um, and so that could be a cause of anger, you know, like like that can be a cause of anger. Uh that like, and it's funny because like I do feel like there are certain, not the standard cases, but there's certain corner cases of Lush and Hara where if you're the victim, you're like, like, you know, if you were just open about it and you said this about me in public, so then at least you're being a man about it. You know, like like it's the cowardliness of it that somehow like makes it worse. And maybe we've got to think about why that is. But uh yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Um, let's quickly glance at Rabag, and then we'll uh we might need to work on him next time. Uh again, Rah Bag is just our closest Rubina Yonah on these program here. Ruch Savon Hine Kamosha Ruachat Safonis Tivara Hageshem Biushalayim. Okay, that's specific. Uh Kihitavi Sham Haidim Haolim Mihayam. So they bring the moist air from the sea. Hayamhu Tsifhoni La, because the sea is north of Yushalim. Kane Lashon Saser, uh, so is Lushon Saser. She sapar Adam Lachavero Diver Ruchilus. So too is the are the words of gossip that a person says to his friend. Oh, this is in the parsha, right? Yivra panim nizamim uh call uh creates uh angry faces, the khadish. Uh the uh that's supposed to be something, maybe and like brings them into existence. He's here but I don't know if that's just like a more meteorologically uh explicit version of what we were saying before. I don't know, like I don't know when he says Rukhilus, I don't know if he means like like Dafka Rukhilus as postalhara or if this is just the same thing. Okay, let's think about it for tomorrow and we'll uh we'll do some other ones uh tomorrow, netter. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

unknown 45:08

Bye.