Mishlei 25:24 - Strife-Wife Gonna Strife ... Again (Part 1)

Mishlei 25:24 - Strife-Wife Gonna Strife ... Again (Part 1)

טוֹב שֶׁבֶת עַל פִּנַּת גָּג מֵאֵשֶׁת [מִדְיָנִים] (מדונים) וּבֵית חָבֶר:

Length: 46 minutes
Synopsis: This morning (4/29/26), in our Morning Mishlei shiur, we took up a pasuk that we already learned over four years ago, when it made its first appearance in 21:9. Fortunately, I don't remember what we said, and was able to go into today's analysis fresh. In contrast to what usually happens, we did NOT end up developing distinct approaches; instead, we explored the phenomenon in the pasuk, suggesting answers and partial interpretations from different angles. Tomorrow (בג"ה) we'll see what the meforshim have to say.
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מקורות:
משלי כא:ט; כה:כד
תרגום רס"ג
תרגום כתובים
תרגום השבעים
פשיטתא
מצודת ציון/דוד
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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Okay, we are on to Michele 2524. Uh Tov Shevis Alpinas Gag Me Asius, and then we have a Kree Ksiv here. So the Ksiv is Madonim, but the Kri is Midjanim. I wanna try translating?

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Better to sit on the corner of a roof.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Yep, better to sit on the corner of a roof.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Than a woman of sorcery.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Uh not sorcery. What are you thinking of? I'm not sure what you're thinking of. Yanim is like from uh what do you call it? Um I mean it comes from the short of of din, but like not judgment. I'm trying to come up with a hint without giving it away.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Sure. Um I'm remembering some things from the last time we did this, also. Yeah. Um yeah. Um a seductive woman.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

I don't remember exactly what good guess about all going through all the Michael list of women, but uh so uh I would translate it as a woman of contentiousness. Okay. Uh like that's like, for example, let me just look it up in the uh in the what do you call dictionary, the uh BDB. Um Midianim is Madon, strife for contention. Is there a case in the Torah that uses this that would be familiar? Uh does not look like it. Doesn't look like it's using that form in the Torah. Uh yeah, strife for contentious. Yeah. Uh yeah, let's say strife, a woman of strife. Um, I don't know what the difference is between Midonim and Madonim. Uh in fact, the fact that the BDB says Madon is strife and contention. Um, I don't know. Like, I'm not, you know, just going over really quickly the Kriegsiv uh approach that's taken by the Radak um and Rubina Yona is that um usually the Kriegsiv is a way for the you know author or the transcriber of Michelate to like work in a dual idea, but sometimes it's straight up like a um uh a scribal error, right? Like it's very easy to see how you know the yud could accidentally have been extended to a Vov. And when Ezra Hassof or when the Ajiknes went through and they finalized um the uh the Tanakh, you know, the text, um then they uh you know they made these judgment calls. So I'm gonna assume that there's no like hidden meaning in Madonim. Yeah, anyway, so Ubeschavir. Or I guess yeah, the the Vav is a little tricky here. Better to sit on the corner of the roof than a woman of strife, Ubeschavir.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

In the house of a friend.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Do you say how do you translate the Vov? And yeah, and the house of a friend. Yeah, so that's literally what it means, and the house of a friend. Okay, so let's look at our minimalist transl uh mufarjim here. So peanas is I don't know why the um Matsustian says Zavios plural. Uh I would think he would just say Zavis, like a corner. Okay, but fine. So so I I think the reason why he has to say peanas gag is corner is I think peanut can also mean foundation, uh like you know, Pinos Hatorah. Um so maybe that's why he has to say that. Uh Sadigon uh in the Kafeth, interestingly, uh according to Kafakh says Lefikah, therefore tov lashevas alpinas gag, it is better to sit on the roof, uh sorry, on the corner of a roof, milesheves in isha ba'alas midyanim or midanim but utradanes um than uh than to sit with a woman who is quarrelsome, I guess, and and uh I guess uh uh like tirida, like uh burdensome. Yeah, burdensome, I guess. Yeah, I'm trying to think if there's a a word that has more of a connotation of like a person who is burdensome because of her personality, but I guess we'll we'll have to figure that out. Okay, then he says, Bischaver, oh, so that's interesting. Uh okay. Bischaver tradanis mean v chav choverchaver. Ah, that's interesting, Tabic. You I don't know if that's where your intuition came from. I doubt it, right? But uh uh your intuition's there. Choverchaver, right? Um, that um choverchaver is a uh um well we hold that it is a what do you call it? Um whisper of incantations. But I think it's related to in like witchcraft, like a familiar, because I think it's also associated with uh like you know, I don't know, summoning animals. Um anyway, so how is he doing this? Base chavir tradanis. So, first of all, just in terms of the move here, he is translating base chaver as a description of the woman rather than a description of the circumstances. And uh I'm just trying to see how he's getting the base here, right? Like it's almost like I would want to say that if it was in Hebrew, he's taking it as bas khaver, but I don't know. Um looks like he explains it above in 21. Okay, fine. So oh, I forgot to say this on the recording. Um, if this puzzle looks familiar, it's because let's see if it's exactly the same puzzlook. But in 21. It says uh Tov Lashevis Alpinas Gog As Midanium Ube Schaber. So not exactly the same, right? Tov la chevis, but pretty much like for all intents and purposes, it's the same, right? Um, yeah, let me see what Sadihuan says there. Uh maybe that'll help. Uh or what Kakas says there. Um Tov Lashevas Alpinas Gog Tov Milishkas? Milish must be, must be, yeah. Mileshevis in yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and assume it's a typo. Um uh hold on, I gotta do my civic duty. Um isha balas midanim vitradanis. Okay, so the Kafka doesn't say there. Let's just see if Amram uh Korak says anything. Ubescha ver Ba'alas rivumata. So he doesn't take it. I mean, he he doesn't state uh say chover chaver here. All right, fine. So it's basically just a synonym for, or not synonym, but like a very similar term for uh uh medanim. Okay, fine. Now the targum is another interesting one, all right. Tav lemisab al karna di igra. Uh so hold on. Uh better to sit on the corner of a roof, mean dilamebad im itisa tigranisa than to uh uh now milamebad is to act with, right? Um, I think. I don't know if that's uh if there's a I mean I know osa it could be many things here, then to to do or act with a or to I don't know if it means just to marry a woman who is contentious, Ubesa Tarka. So I had to look that up, and the Jastro says Tarka is a castle or a palace. Okay. Um uh or yeah, see, the Jastro says that castle or palace is the translation of our puzzle here. Um, I would have thought if it didn't give the example, I would have thought it says Taraka, which is stirring up a disturbance. So I don't know if Jastro's making a mistake or whatever. Uh so it's contentious and then either and um disturbing or and in a palace, which would also fit because that's like uh, you know, versus, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:10

What did the me'amad mean to stand with?

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Oh me'emad, sorry. Yeah, I just I read as Lema'vod, yeah, to stand. Yeah, that that's yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. To to be basically to be with, right? Yeah, okay. That that that that's good. Just a little dyslexia there. All right, uh R scroll. Better is dwelling on the corner of a roof than dwelling with a contentious wife even in a house of friends. Okay, I think that's if you're gonna go with the house of friends, then I think uh you having the even um is uh is is fine. Corin, there's no recursion this. Corin says, it is better to dwell in the corner of the housetop than with a brawling woman and in a roomy house. Ah, okay, so that's interesting, also. Bis chaver. Right, so that's like the uh the targum, I guess. And then, oh, altar also, better to dwell in the corner of a roof than with a quarrelsome wife in a spacious house. Yeah, and he notes uh the this duplicates uh 219. Okay, fine. All right, so I guess we'll keep uh let me just uh go back to our translation and then try to put all the meanings there. So better to dwell, uh I think dwell is probably better, right? To dwell on the corner of a roof uh than I guess with, yeah. A woman of strife. Um and uh what were the uh house? Yeah, I'm just looking at the at the uh and uh like tradanis. Uh what was the uh was that the only one who said that? The uh Kafek? Yeah, Traudanis. Uh uh a woman of strife and burdensomeness. Burdens. Yeah, we'll we'll just leave that as a side gun, right? Um and uh woman of strife even in a house of friends or actually let's put it this way uh even in a house of friends or uh and in a spacious house um or palace right okay, I think that that'll be good for now. Okay, so what are the questions here?

SPEAKER_04 10:16

Is it is the corner of the roof of a mushroom?

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Uh I think it is uh, I mean, that's a good question. So what is a corner of the roof? Okay, there's a couple possibilities. Is it um is it literal? Is it hyperbole, right? I think uh or a uh a mushroom. Yeah, I think hyperbole is probably the better uh like I'm picturing someone uh, you know, like I don't know if this is going on verging on interpretation, but like like he's trying to get as far away from this woman as possible in his own house. So the corner of the roof is like, you know, I don't know, but but maybe I guess I guess we could take that in different ways. Uh but just physically, like it is part of the house. Yeah, Isaac.

SPEAKER_06 10:59

What does Chevis mean?

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Yeah, what does uh Chevis mean? Um to sit or to dwell, and and in either case, what does that mean? Also, what is an ascious medianim? Yeah, what is an ascious medianim? Uh yeah, you know what's interesting also? I'd say, hold on a second. I don't know, I bet someone on YouTube is gonna say uh um is gonna comment on this, but like like is you, I guess, does the the the construct form change our or I guess how does the construct form change our uh I guess uh how does the construct form affect our understanding of the of the relationship between the woman and the median, right? In other words, um uh like you know, in other words, like uh especially I guess especially given the plural, right? In other words, like is she is is is Midianim to be understood uh as an adjective, which I sounds a little weird, right? Uh and I don't know enough grammar to say this, or a pluralized noun. And um, you know, it's like like hold on a second here, because I know we say ashes chail, right? And ashuschyle does not mean the woman of a hil, it means a woman of wealth, right? But there, chil is singular, so like I don't think twice about it, but midyanin, like if it says ashes madon, I feel like that'd be a more, yeah. I don't uh this is like all in grammatical territory that I don't know. Yeah, Isaiah? You're missing the word does uh how does thank you. Yeah, Isaiah, yeah. Um Tove.

SPEAKER_04 13:01

So Tove in terms of what?

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Yeah, so better in terms of what? Yeah, yeah. I don't think so, because then it would definitely have to say me Nashin Midjanim, uh right. Um, yeah. I was wondering if it can mean like I uh this is I think this is not true, but like figuratively, like a wife of fights, you know, uh like to you know uh uh what do you call it? Uh figuratively describing it that way, but I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, right. Okay. So what is the base chaver, right? So if it is referring to a friend, what kind of friend? Uh and what is the significance of base, right? Uh and is this like a friend's house or a friend in your house? Um and then if it's uh spacious or palatial, um I just want to understand what is the uh like I just don't I don't get how we're reading this as base javera. Like I don't you know you know let me let me check out one more thing. Um let's go to the secret autora site and check out the other uh uh other uh textual witnesses. Um let's look at the Septuagint is word 24, right? It is better to dwell in the corner of a railing woman in an open house. Okay, so that's like spacious, and then the pshitita, the Syriac Torah, Ubabase Ubabesa de Palgusa. Sorry, uh, I'm interested. Shapir lame lameamar. I wonder if that's also a typo. Yeah, Al Karna de Igra Min de Lameamar im Uh yeah, intesa netzita. So that's like uh shim, right? Like uh fighting, Ubesa de Palgusa and a house of Mach Lokis, right? Palgusa. Um of uh yeah, and then is there anything else we're supposed to check out here? Um no, unless we want to look at the Dead Sea Scrolls. Uh, but I don't think that's gonna really help us, but let's do it because it's fun. Uh if they have it, maybe they don't have it. All right, they don't have it then. Never mind. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Um yeah, David. Uh whose whose strife is this like when you're saying like this is like her character, or this is something that's specific to you that you relate to her? And yeah, that's a good question, also, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Um, so let's say like what is the what is the nature of this this uh midian? Um is this a quality that stems exclusively from her or does it emerge from your relationship with her? Uh or I guess with how you relate to her.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

Yeah, uh, from how you how you from your relationship with her. Uh with her. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Um, I'm gonna ask the obvious question, but uh I don't know if this is the only obvious answer. What is the practical implication of this PUSOK? And I'd also say, like, I'm gonna say what I'm here, I'm gonna pair it with the decision-making scenario. What is the decision-making scenario uh and practical implication of this PUSIC? In other words, um, clearly this is uh, you know, this implies that you shouldn't get married to such a woman, right? But if you are, I guess if you did, or if she became that, right? Uh, and let's say like yeah, yeah, yeah, if or or you find yourself uh in that situation, um uh is this giving you uh any uh any guidance? Right? Like, in other words, uh like is this implying you I mean again, this is an extreme thing. The most extreme thing you could do is uh uh you should divorce her, or is it somehow guiding you uh in how to live with her, right? I think that's the question.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Yeah, David. Uh related to question one, what's implied by peanut and gog? Like, why do we need both corner and roof? Like, is corner not sufficient? Is roof not sufficient?

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Why do you need both uh peanut and gog?

SPEAKER_04 17:44

Yeah, is there um relating to your most efficient question? Is saying to live on the corner of a roof, basically saying don't do it, carry to the woman, or is it actually telling you to go to the room?

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Yeah, right, right, right. Um is uh Toshevis uh Al Pinas Gog uh telling you that this is that this is what you should actually do, or is this just part of the um the hyperbole uh or I guess the hyperbolic um uh pro-con uh statement uh about what it's like uh to live with her. Yeah, Moshe?

SPEAKER_03 18:32

Yeah, maybe it's not anything, but at least for seven, like at least uh polygon to the decision-making scenario, like uh if you are married to her, so like uh how frequently should you apply this? Like every time you're out and you're like, honey, sorry, I just have to go to the corner of the roof, I can't be with you. Or like certain times.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Right. Yeah, right. Uh and if this is guiding you in how to live with her, um, what are the parameters for um for uh applying this, right? Um like for example, you know, always uh retreat uh to the to the corner? Yeah. That's funny. Another question I have about the parameters here is to what extent is this Davka about a uh a marriage, and to what extent can this be applied to any you know uh close quarters uh association with a contentious person? So for example, roommate or co-worker or um neighbor, right? Like in close quarters, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Yeah, uh David. What's so bad about presumably so bad about being Yoshi of a peanut and cog? Like I think we do see a lot of benefit in isolation in a sense of like enabling a person to quietly think freely.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

I thought you were you were gonna ask that in a more David way. Like being exposed to the elements 24-7, you know, and and uh you know, yeah. That is well, but I know not everyone thinks that. So all right, I'll I'll ask the question. Uh I'll I mean I'll list the question here. So um I'll put this over here. What's so bad about about living uh Alpinas Gog? Uh or I guess about about Chef's Alpinas Gog. Uh Pinas Gog. Yeah, I don't know anyone who wants that. Yeah, Ezra.

SPEAKER_04 20:34

Um is this I don't know if this is a great question, but is this roof dangerous? Like are you afraid of falling off?

SPEAKER_01 20:39

Yeah, right. Right. What qualities are being highlighted? Uh you know, uh danger, uh, you know, um uh I guess uh cramped space, right? Because that's like if you take the spatial thing, um uh exposed to elements. Is there a maca? Yeah, right. Of course we're assuming that there's a maca, yeah, right. Um, yeah. Okay. Uh I feel like those are the main questions. Let's just think a little bit more. Well, I guess just to add better in terms of what uh and and how, right? Those are always two questions you have to ask, right? So, for example, if you say that uh, you know, better a dry a stale piece of bread with the tranquility in it than a uh house full of contentious mead. So in terms of happiness, in terms of you know meeting your needs, and then how is one better than the other within that criterion? Yeah. Okay. Let's go to ideas. Oh, you know, actually, two more questions, two more questions. One is um these are kind of like secondary questions, but like um uh what what prompts Sadjugaon to add therefore? Um uh and what what does he mean? Let's just see what the previous Pasuk was. Uh previous Pasuk was Ruach. So that I guess I mean I guess he's connecting the Panim Nizamim, the um uh how do we translate that? Uh angry face, yeah, right, uh to the to the woman. But yeah, that's not an obvious connection here, right? Uh I would not have said that. And yeah, I'm curious to see how many other Mufarshim say this. Um, which by the way, though, uh, I guess just more more uh you know Michael contextual questions, what do we get from the repetition of this Pusuk? Um uh, you know, uh, in other words, like, you know, does the context of 21, and that might be what prompts the side of this 21. Uh, 24 change anything? Uh, you know, uh, yeah, you know, change anything? Yeah. And and that's the approach we've taken whenever there's a uh a near duplicate of Mishle is is presumably the context is uh is the right one. My favorite example of this, just to repeat it here, is the um uh what's the word? Um near gun, right? Uh divir nirgun kum islamim vihim yor yordimat yeah. Yeah, okay, so that's in two places also. So it's in 188. Uh the words of a complainer are like blows, they descend to the depths of the belly, and then it's also in 2620, no, no, 2622, right? So uh it's and that's exactly the same positive. So the move we made there is if you look at at uh 188, then it's in a bunch of tsukim about the um about the effects of a uh fool's speech uh or actions on himself. But then if you look at 2622, it's in the context of starting up fights with other people, right? So you see there, it's very clear. First case is really putting emphasis on beating you when you complain, you're beating yourself up, and then in 2622, it's about beating up other people. So that's the kind of move that I'm I'm like on the lookout for. Yeah, Isaac? What's the context here?

SPEAKER_06 24:25

What's the context here? What's the previous one?

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Context here is uh so we had okay. Well, I guess the paragraph starts off with your how to deal with your enemy. Okay, then we had last week's posuk about um presumably some relationship between uh uh lash and hara or private speech and anger, whether it causes anger or would or anger causes it. And then the next pasuk looks like it is not connected. Maim Karim Al Nefish Ayefa Ushmua Tova Mi Eritz Mirchak. That does not sound like it's connected here. And then in 219, it looks like uh what do we have here? Makshvos karutz achlum was arbakl ach, ahlamasor, pol, authoros bidosh and shaker, hevel nidaf mbakish mabis, shodrushai mi gorim kime anulasas mishpat. So those look all like they're about like wealth management in some way, and then um Hafakpach Derech Ish Vazar, Vizak Yashar Polo, who knows what that's about. Tovleshevas Gagmi Ash, Midna Vice Cover, Nefish Russia, Ivesar Ra Loyuchan Baina Vreehu. So that at least has to do with like um fellow fellowship. But anosh pe late kam pesu has that sounds like it's about to chakha. Yeah, not not not obviously clear here. Yeah, yeah, I think.

SPEAKER_06 25:49

So I have um next.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Oh, sorry, sorry, one more question, one more question. Uh, and I I don't think we're gonna get to this, but uh I do want to ask it, which is um how I guess how or where does this fit in with the other sukim in the genre of uh Michle and Contentious Wives, right? Like this is definitely a genre. Um like what was the other one uh about the irksum dripping?

SPEAKER_06 26:18

Yeah, it's like uh like I think like a roof with a drip.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Yeah, roof with a drip, right? Um, and uh um and then there's also uh in Kohellas, right? There's also um uh I think there's a puzzle in Kohellas about that. I think that's the one that I love that one of the Almarayan I think about the response. Yeah, he was talking to his son, right? He was talking to his son, and Clothes says, This is your mother. You know? I don't even remember even that. That's the only line I remember because I hear it in Sean Connery's uh in the SNL of Sean Connery's voice, your mother, you know. But uh yeah, I don't know. Anyway, yeah, sorry Isaac I interrupted you.

SPEAKER_06 26:57

Yeah, so I have a um at least an explanation of the construct of the HSM Yadim.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 27:06

Um it's hard to say so. I think um in each individual instance of like a you know, quarrel with this with a sweet woman, um you can't say like it's it might seem like she's making a point, like she has a good point or something, you know, but like not like um you know, it like an individual argument doesn't make someone contentious. And if like especially if they have like um especially if they have uh like a reasonable position. But the I think interest median is you you you you kind of like over time you notice that this that you have that you have a lot of fights with her because um she's at like a woman of fights, like she'll she'll she'll pick fight, you know, she fights about things.

SPEAKER_02 28:05

Right.

SPEAKER_06 28:06

Even though um in a way where it's also the type of thing where you can't you can't call her out on it.

SPEAKER_02 28:17

Right.

SPEAKER_06 28:19

I'll give me an example, and then you talk on one and then she'll say, Oh, but I was right about that because X, Y, Z, you know.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Right. That's a good point. Uh in particular cases.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

That's a good point. Right. So what is the quality? I think we I feel like we have to have some working definition of of of uh is medianim, right? Not to say this is the definitive thing, but we have to take a stance on like what it means here. I mean, in in some form it's gonna come down to her default stance being you're wrong, right? It might not even be I'm right, like it just might be it might be in the form of being overly critical or being overly mockped or being or shooting down your ideas, you know, like it's gonna I feel like because that's what the essence of contention is, is someone is being holike on you, right? Uh in some way.

SPEAKER_06 29:15

Is that what the default assumption is that you're you're wrong, you're making a mistake, you're you know, you did something wrong.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Right. Your default pattern is to be critical of you, your decisions, your actions, um uh right. I guess behavior. Right, behavior. Uh and and the fact that it's a default, so what is the fact that it's a default show, right? And just to bring up what you were saying before, what does the fact that it's a default show? So at the very least, it shows that she's not responding to the reality. Uh right. I mean, unless you really are worthy of criticism, right? I assume that's the premise here is that that you're not um, you know, that you're uh you're you know you're not doing that, right? So uh I guess to the external reality of you or the situation, but she's responding to something. I guess her her her uh her her contentiousness stems from something within her. Again, these are very basic steps, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:31

I just want to make a further appealer. I think you would say between contentious woman exclusively in the marriage versus a contentious woman in general. That's a good question, right? Is she contentious in the marriage? It seems to be from her relationship and her standing relative with the husband, maybe she feels like inferior or interior, so that's why she needs to be overly critical, or is she generally overly critical because she thinks she's always right?

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Right. That's a that's a good question. So I think we do need to take a stance on that, right? So likewise, is this is she a contentious wife, um, but not outside of the marriage uh with others, uh or is she a contentious woman, for example, even with her friends, right? Um uh yeah, right. Yeah, so to me that I mean I don't know if you could get it from the word asia's medion. Yeah, I was gonna say that that would that wouldn't apply as that, but uh yeah. And the question is does it matter, right? Um and does it matter here? Yeah, you would think it would matter. Actually, yeah, I don't know. It is interesting, psychologically, it might not matter because or or sorry, the opposite. Psychologically, it might make a difference because if you do see that this is something that she is like all the time, it is easier to not take it as personally, theoretically. I mean, it could still be really annoying, but you're not taking it personally. But if it's if she is like completely pleasant with everyone else, and then with you, she's just constantly critical, that's gonna really, really great on you in a harsh way. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

Yeah, Isaac.

SPEAKER_06 32:13

So maybe what it's hard for me to say is that um um when you have this this type of um this type of life, then it's better to just um to just completely isolate yourself, even if it means putting yourself in a very isolate yourself from her, even if it means putting yourself in a like physically uncomfortable position. Right. Um rather than um like uh I'd say living in like a palace or um a nice house or something like that. That like there isn't any like change to your physical circumstances that you can make that's gonna like address this.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

There's not, there's not. So you're saying there's not actually telling you to retreat somewhere within your own.

SPEAKER_06 33:07

So I'm saying sorry, I was saying trying to like improve the like um the the setting of like your your of your house. Like the I meant trying to make your like house nicer. That's what I meant by physical circumstances. Trying to make your like home nice isn't gonna isn't gonna solve it.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

Okay, so then that's another question we have to to ask here, which is what's the havamina, right? What is the havamina? Um yeah, right. So I think like there are two havaminas, depending on on uh let me just talk this out for a second. Havamina, there's two havaminas based on which uh whatever translation you take. Is A that um that you know uh uh increasing your social life in your home will mitigate uh these effects, right? In other words, like if you always have friends over, so then like maybe that's gonna like make it make her tolerable, or I we have to figure out like in other words, this is another knocking about whether this she's like this all the time or just with you, you know, maybe, right? So that's one thing. Or B, um if you can increase the comfort of your of your of your house, um that will mitigate it. Yeah, I'm way more inclined to go with the base cover being a literally a house of uh actually, I shouldn't say house of friends, right? A house with friends. That's probably the most uh uh ambiguous way to do it. Yeah, Ezra? Um I oh yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 34:39

Yeah, that maybe once of like if somebody's in a situation where they're gonna have a companious wife, yeah, then on the one hand they're wanting to be but on the other hand, there's a lot that you have to do to give up your wife. Yeah. Change your whole life.

SPEAKER_02 34:51

Right.

SPEAKER_04 34:52

So somebody might have they could basically just live their life, like basically avoiding their wife. Yeah. Like live on the opposite side of the house. Right. Or just always be with your friends. Yeah. It's like that.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:05

And but basically the politics tangit, that's not really practical.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

Okay, that I think that's a good approach, right? A common denominator. Uh, so that's gonna work for each one denominator, is that um that like uh you know a person thinks he can, you know, like so you're saying it's talking to a person who has already gotten who's already in this situation, yeah. Yeah, yeah, right. So this is addressing uh someone who finds himself in this uh in this in such a marriage, uh, and uh who thinks he can essentially avoid his wife, uh to minimize this problem. Uh and uh whether through social you know, through social outlets or um like the the the the changing of his living circumstances you know in other ways, right? Uh and then Kamash Milan, uh so Kamash Milan, you can't is an interesting one. Tobla Shevis Alpinas Gog, right? Is that really Yeah?

SPEAKER_04 36:09

I mean, I'm not really explaining that.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_04 36:12

It seems like it's just saying that's not a practical thing.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

Yeah. So so in other words, you you can't. And uh and uh like in other words, Chevis Alpinas Gog uh is is hyperbolically saying that this isn't an option. Right, except for Dubin, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:32

Yeah, um address being uh increasing uh your I mean that you're able to have a social life without these effects. Uh-huh. In other words, okay, right. Yeah. And it's like it's better to have total isolation that's on the roof like the corridor. So you're gonna not you're gonna take any any social enjoyment. Yeah, and that's better than being with friends, but also with your wife, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Than being with friends and also your wife who is contentious. Yeah, just to spell this out a little bit, because I I think we I don't know if we took this approach last time, but like like part, can we just explain psychologically why that's better? Why it's better, like or why, why, sorry, let's why is why is being with friends not gonna be satisfying? Like you would think I get the satisfaction of my friends, and then like, okay, my wife is annoying, but yeah. Yeah, I mean in other words, just throw it out.

SPEAKER_03 37:30

I mean how I mean it is he knows his wife's annoying, he's gonna it's gonna make his life less enjoyable. Yeah, but he says, okay, be with my friends, and that's very enjoyable, right? Social benefit, okay. If she's around, it'll be a little annoying, but that's like quantitative.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:44

So obviously that's better than being alone where I'm not getting any enjoyment from any friends. Yeah. But most friends, no, it's like her being around is like quality that affects the whole interaction. You can't enjoy yourself with your friends, right? You won't bring it, criticizing you every moment.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

Yeah, you won't be able to enjoy yourself uh with your friends because of her interference. And I want to say just one more thing. I don't know if this is the sole aspect of it. I want to say, like, perhaps because part of your social enjoyment uh with your friends, and I'm gonna be very descriptive here, is there's a queum in in in like you know, your your esteem, your self-esteem among your friends, uh that she's going to negate, right? In other words, like like part of being friends is that you like there's an implicit or explicit making each other feel good about who you are. Like, oh, this person's with me because they like me or because they, you know, like they affirm my good qualities or whatever, you know. So if she's negating that, then it's not going to be like let's give an example of this, okay? Like this is a very, very specific example. Let's say, like, let's say part of your joint with your friends is you joke around, you know? And so you get the ego gratification of being funny and also being a source of joy through your humor. But if she's criticizing you about that or in general, you won't be able to like enjoy that feeling. You know, so like she's she's just like spoiling it, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, David, what do you want to say?

SPEAKER_00 39:21

Uh okay. So that's something along very, very similar lines. I would just say in the same cause and effect. Um, just maybe instead of the address of social isolation, as much as um when you're saying like self-esteem, I would say how a person evaluates themselves. Um, in that I think a lot of times what's like dangerous, risky about being alone is that people can get very self-critical and they have no one that's there to support them and say, hey, it's not actually what you're like judging judging yourself as. Um I think that one could think that then, okay, great. Well, if I'm around friends, even if there's someone else who's there, I would're a friends, at least I'll be hearing some of the good. But if there's someone in particular, say your wife, who probably that's like the person who's closest to you and whose opinion means most to you, no matter how many like yeses you can get, there's like that very, very sharp thorn of the one, she's the one who's like really, really her opinion matters, and she's the one who's saying no. So all of those yeses mean nothing. And it's better to just have to think about myself on my own. Right.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Okay, yeah. So if your wife is overly critical of you, uh then that will negate uh this uh the social, this objective social benefit um of being with friends uh due to the subjective um uh uh ego bashing, right? I mean, uh the the that's the subjective feel. The the example I'm thinking of here uh is that like, you know, uh uh you know, I haven't no youtuber, but no. Um the uh content creators in general, you can have like a million likes, and then the one person who is uh critical, like that's the one that that that gets in your head. So like this is like having that voice with you all the time, um, and uh and it's not gonna be outweighed by all of your friends uh you know positive input. So what I like about this one is like uh uh just Tove here equals objectively beneficial, right? Uh in a way. I mean, I know that's not what you said, but um uh no, no, no, no. That's maybe that's going too far. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Other approaches? Let's look at the Matudis just to yeah, Isaac.

SPEAKER_06 41:30

I was gonna say about keyscoldown. About what? He scroll down. Um that um I think it uh her being critical of you in front of like you might think that she wouldn't be critical of you in front of your friends, but she will. And then that's gonna that's gonna be completely completely negated in part because now you're gonna feel like your friends don't respect you as much.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

Okay, right, right. Okay, so you you might delude yourself into thinking she won't criticize you in front of your friends, um uh, but she will, and then you're going to feel like even your friends uh don't respect you. And just to state this explicitly here, I mean, like I think there is the normal aspect of being criticized and that bringing out your insecurities, but I do think that there's also a like uniquely male phenomenon of like it's emasculating to be put down by your own wife in front of your uh in front of your friends, you know. So I think it's like it's gonna be a combination of both. I do think those are two distinct things. What do you say?

SPEAKER_03 42:47

Yeah, I was just wondering, is this is someone really gonna put themselves into thinking that if she's really so critical of all the time, she's not gonna do that? Like, aren't we? Isn't that a greater key in her uh major? Right. If she wants to put you down and criticize you, she can do it in front of other people. Why wouldn't she?

SPEAKER_01 43:01

Right.

SPEAKER_05 43:02

Um, I think generally between like uh spouses, like there's a there's a usually there's like an agreement that even if you do something wrong, like it's something that we talk about right and behave in public. Like you don't like saying, like in general, so like even though she has general meter, doesn't mean it's necessarily going to like cross all boundaries of social reforms that right that like includes like even in front of everybody in front of your friends at a party, whatever, like that would be like another level. Maybe you're saying that like that's the two greatest level.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

I mean, I'll I'll tell you uh just more general, I agree with you, but more general answer, people delude themselves all the time into thinking that the person with bad mitos is not going to exhibit the bad meetup when they don't want to. You know, this is what happens. Like they would never do this, you know, and you tell yourself, and one of the insidious things about this kind of thing is there's the the grading quality of this norm, but also it could there could be one instance of this that could like ruin a relationship with your friends or like ruin your reputation or just get in your head. Like, like that's the nature of these interpersonal stats is that some person says something and just gets to you and it remains. That one instance remains with you. So if you're telling yourself, like, okay, she's not gonna go overboard and like embarrass me in front of my co-workers, once she does that once, like it could just spoil that entire social, you know, realm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:26

Also, she is your wife. Presumably, you still have some positive relationship for you.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

Yeah, right. Right. Yeah, that's uh that's another thing, also, is that um uh is that like this is just a reminder, right? Uh this isn't the only quality of this woman, right? Um, so you can delude yourselves. Uh sorry, yeah, those especially especially especially if if you you know especially since you married her, right? Um uh and again, whether that was whether you knew that she was going to become like this or she was like this, you know. Um, so that's another reason why you might uh delude yourself uh into thinking into thinking into downplaying this, right? Um okay, we don't have time to learn it, but let's just read them to us to get it in our head for for uh next time. Uh Matsudas D.

SPEAKER_06 45:16

So I have a question about these approaches. What's the what's the practical application?

SPEAKER_01 45:20

What are you supposed to do? Right, we haven't talked about that yet. Uh 24. What was that?

SPEAKER_05 45:26

Uh I definitely said that one word.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

Um uh skog, mi bli machse without shelter, viachidi, and alone, mibli khersanashim. I think those are two. Well, I guess those there's a negative of being alone, and then there's also a lack of a positive of khabrasanashim. So there's a three three qualities, I guess, right, without shelter. That's uh I wonder what that means. Then dwelling in house with a contentious uh uh woman, a wife, even with with with uh with people. Yeah. All right, so let's think about that for tomorrow. All right, uh a lot of possibilities here. It's interesting. Interesting. I feel like this is unusual for our learning of Mishlay, where we're not going into distinct lanes. We're just like listing all the factors here. Okay, see you tomorrow.

unknown 46:16

All right.