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The Mishlei Podcast
The Mishlei Podcast
Mishlei 25:24 - Strife-Wife Gonna Strife ... Again (Part 2)
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Mishlei 25:24 - Strife-Wife Gonna Strife ... Again (Part 2)
טוֹב שֶׁבֶת עַל פִּנַּת גָּג מֵאֵשֶׁת [מִדְיָנִים] (מדונים) וּבֵית חָבֶר:
Length: 30 minutes
Synopsis: This morning (4/30/26), in our Morning Mishlei shiur, we began by reviewing our questions on 25:24, but then most of the rest of shiur learning the meforshim on 21:9, where the pasuk first appears, since that's where most of the commentaries can be found. In addition to the Mishleic insights we gained, we also encountered a fair bit of Mishlei methodology. I wish we would have had the leisure to fully unpack the Malbim and Ralbag, but given the time constraints, I'm happy with what we got.
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מקורות:
משלי כא:ט; כה:כד; כז:טו-טז
מלבי"ם
פירוש רס"ג
זרחיה בן שאלתיאל חן
רש"י
רלב"ג
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Okay, so this is day two of Mishlay 2524. Tov chefes alpinas gag me aches medianim upechaver. So uh we had two translations. Better to dwell on the corner of the roof than with a woman of strife. And then the end is the ambiguous part. So I think most people say uh implied, even in a house with a friend, beischaver, or a house of a friend. So chaver here is chavir mamesh. Okay. Second interpretation, and we didn't quite know how they got this from the words, is bashaver is either a spacious house or a palace. And then the third one is what David Lichter said, which I don't know where he got it from, because this is not how I would have said it, but a surprising number of Marshams say um bischaver and uh and in the house of a uh a sorceress like Jover Chaver. Okay, uh whatever, Lavdaka sorcerers, but like someone who does kishef or like uh you know incantations. Okay. So like I just don't know why anyone would go to I don't know if there's some grammatical point of base chaver prompting them to do that, but I don't know, it's very weird. Okay, our questions were what is the corner of a roof? Uh is this to be understood literally, hyperbole, or muscle? I think those are the three options. Uh, and then why do you need Tina and Gog? Um, what qualities are being highlighted here? Is it the danger, the cramped space, the exposure to the elements, uh, the solitude? I mean, definitely the solitude, but uh yeah. Two, what does Cheves mean? Does it mean to sit or to dwell? And what does that mean? Three, what's an ashes medyanim? How does that how does the construct form as medianim affect our relation understanding of the relationship between the woman and the medyanim, especially given the plural? Is midyanim to be understood as an adjective or as a pluralized noun? Uh four, what is the nature of this midyanim? Is it a quality that stems exclusively from her, or does it emerge from your relationship with her? Um, and then I guess the Navkamina, uh, I'll merge these two questions. The Nafkamina is is she a contentious white Davka wife, but in her relationship with other people she's fine? Or is that her personality? And then this is emphasizing the uh, you know, in that relationship. Five, better in terms of what and how? Six, what's the Havamina? Um seven, uh, what's so bad about Shheva Zalpinas Gag? Um, I think that's like uh gonna be in the first uh thing here. Uh yeah, okay. Um uh what is base khaver? Is it referring to a friend? What kind of friend, and what's the significance of bias? And is this a friend's house or a friend in your house? Uh if it's spacious or placial, how do you read uh base khaver? Eight, what's the decision-making scenario and the practical implications? So clearly, this implies that you shouldn't get married to such a woman, but if you did, or you find yourself in that situation, is this giving you any guidance, or is it just saying, like, bad decision? Uh, is this implying that you should divorce her? It's extreme, or is it somehow guiding you in how to live with her? Uh, is Tov Chevis Alpinas Gogh telling you that this is what you should actually do? Or is this part of the hyperbolic pro-con statement about what it's like to live with her? And then if this is guiding you on how to live with her, what are the parameters of applying this? Um, nine, what to what extent is this Dafka about a marriage? And to what extent can this be applied to any close quarters association with a contentious person, like a roommate, co-worker, or neighbor? Um uh 10, what prompts Sidigone to add therefore? He connects to therefore, and what does he mean? 11, what do we get from the repetition of the puzzle uh in 21, 9 and 25, 24? Uh, does the context affect anything? And then 12, how does this fit in with the other Psukium in the genre of Mishleia and the contentious wives? Okay, so rather than reading through everything we did yesterday, I found the um the malbim, I think, kind of uh best captures what we have said. Uh, by the way, we're gonna mostly be using the torus kheim from 21-9, which you don't have. So you can look at that if you want, but almost everyone just said look at 21-9. Um, so the malbim says like this, and we might have done this last time, okay. Tovshevis, Hagam Shitov Lashevis Braves Khaver. Even though it's good to dwell in a base khaver, but it's a little more babais sheshang chabura. Okay, so meaning like a social you know, house that has like uh uh you know friends in it, im oabim v chavirim vereim with different types of friends, velo tov le shaves galmud, and it's usually not good to dwell alone. Uh that's a eo of uh happax legominon, I think galmud is a weird word. Uh al mishesh lo ish midyanim. But if you have an ashes midyanim as a wife, low tov le shaves chaber, then it's not good to dwell in a bashhaber. Why? So he gives a nice set of reasons. One, she tis coted imhachaverim a she is chahu lo lo oivim. So she's gonna uh quarrel or start up with them to the point where they will become your enemies. Okay, so she's she's gonna she's gonna change their opinion of you. Okay. Um, two, oh to midjan benehem, or she's gonna start fights among them. Okay, so that's interesting. Um, three, oh, and this one is what we said yesterday, o to vasehu lifnaim, or she'll degrade you in front of them. Um, the uhs to la shevas apinas gag nifrad meha chaverin. It's best to it's better to uh to uh dwell on a corner of a roof uh separate from your friends. Okay, fine. So that that I think is uh is what we said in you know in large part. So let's just stop before we read on for a second and just get this here, right? So we I think we said yesterday that the Havamina is that you can somehow mitigate or balance out the good uh or the the bad of the wife with the good of the friends, but it's not gonna work because she's gonna poison them against you or poison your experience with them. Yeah, Isaac.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so um when she tried when she turns them to enemies, it could be that she makes them um she creates animal like where they start hating you. It also could be that she like says the right things to like make you question your relationship with them to make oh that could be, yeah, yeah, right, that's true.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I think the way to picture this is um uh I think I don't know if you I I've been picturing like a like a nagging wife, but I think if you're talking about her impact on the friends, I think it is more like a gossiping wife. Like she's going to sow discord by let's say, like, let's say in the thing of like um making them fight with each other, like she'll probably talk about their wives and like the social dynamics there, or she'll mention, she'll bring up, let's say, things that you said in confidence to her that could cause animosity with them, you know. So it's just uh yeah, not a good situation. Uh, I was gonna say, based on this approach, would you say that this is Davka wife, or that this extends to other uh types of you know, co-workers, friends, things like that?
SPEAKER_02No, no, no, I think I would have to say I think one difference about the wife is like co-worker. Let's say you have co-worker from your friend's house. Yeah, let's just keep a co-worker who appears that's irrelevant. Right. If she's your wife, then she's like a FTR identity.
SPEAKER_04Okay. So the analogy though, would I was thinking with co-workers is if you're working with someone and not we're not talking about your personal home, but you're spending probably more hours of the day with a co-worker than with uh with than with your wife, you know. Um yeah. I mean, I so in other words, there are definitely quantitative differences that could that could cut either way, but like it does seem like, and again, coworker, boss, like, you know, whatever, like it does seem like some of these dynamics could uh affect you in in similar ways. Again, you know, certainly quantitatively, you know, maybe there's quantitative differences because of what we said before about, let's say, like the emasculation factor, or the fact that like she's my wife and like I'm being you know treated like this. Um, yeah. So, but I I do think that this is not confined to just uh a wife uh with the dynamics. Okay, so just methodologically, I don't know if I want to like fully unpack this, but um but he then goes on and tries to paint a unified picture. And I just want to get the methodology of how he does this. So he says, Uvapas yotes yomar kitov lashevas beerit mid barb ashes midyanivakas, so similar puzzlak would better to dwell in a wasteland than with a wife of quarrels and anger. Right, sorry, I don't know that's funny. If she is uh uh she has a temper in addition to just being H S Midianim, so then even dwelling on the corner of a roof in a city is not good. Um, yeah, right. But Sarai leave roach mi paneha elamirbar, you gotta like go to the wasteland. Uh yeah, him or her. Oh, that's interesting. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's interesting. Right. So that's a bad combo, right? Yeah, it's that's really toxic, right? So then so that actually answers our question about how much of this is coming from her and how much of this is from the mix, right? So if it's just from her, so what what's the yeah, stay on the roof, right? Right. So, like, like there's still uh hope to be in the same household, just you know, minimizing uh interaction. Um, but if you're gonna be provoked and you set each other off, then that's just uh, you know, I mean at that point, like if you can, you should get divorced. I mean, I don't think that's a good I don't think that's a good recipe for like it's not gonna help the kids, it's not gonna help like long term, it's just gonna get worse. Say again? Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01Any reason? I could have run the book any reason. Yeah, we all can be here.
SPEAKER_04Uh okay, so that is in 21. You guys can look at it later. All right, now in our in our passa. All right, so to yeah, Isaac.
SPEAKER_00Oh, sorry, I have uh I have an approach for the buffika, but uh I just want to follow with them all of them here.
SPEAKER_04Tob shows Alpinas Gog, me ashes midnum bash, Kvar Amar Zellamala. Uh so we said this above. Uba Ho Shane's it's coming a second time, Alpimash Kazov Lakaman, um Delef Torid Byom Sagrir. By the way, this is not in 20 uh eight, it's in 27, and I already sent a correction. Delef Toraid Byom Sagrir, V Ashis Midianim Nishtava Tsufneha Tsafan Rua. Okay, let's look at this positive here. So, yeah, um a uh Delif Toraid Byom Sagrir. Uh, I think that's a drooping uh ceiling or roof on a rainy day. Um, I just want to see how RS will translates this. I would say that she you know it's it's equal, right? Nishtava, maybe. Um, let's see, I didn't look this up. Uh 2815. Sorry, 27. Yeah, I think so. Um 2715 is an irksome dripping on a day of rainy confinement. Oh, so that's beyond rainy confinement. I guess, yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, right. Oh, it's in in brackets it says rainy, but uh, I guess the it's getting that from the dripping. Um, and a contentious wife are alike, and then so fneha tsofan ruach the shemen y me no yikra. He who would hide her would hide the wind as one's right hand proclaims the oil, and then in brackets with which it was anointed. I don't know. I don't know what this is. Again, I don't I don't really want to try to learn the entire thing. I just want to show you what the Malvin is going to do with this. He says, Um, Shemidame Ashus Midanim El Deleftorid. So he compares her to an urxim dripping. But Geshem Nolat Aide Ruch Tsafon. Okay, the uh the Geshem is created by a north wind. That's our previous pasa. Um uh where did it go? Uh Nolat Aide Ruchtaf Hyotomim Miskarto that comes out from its like uh enclosure. Okay, vim yirta litz litzpun har ruachatsafon has that's a little pun. If you want to like uh uh sequester this north wind, which give rise to gives rise to rain, then you're just grabbing wind. Okay, then whatever that sheminimino yikra means, midyanim hatsafun yolid midyanim, a chit toglashevas upinas gag, she incha mach semin hageshem, ha you rodumil mala, yeshiv im hadelaf hatori be saver, al ko anche habai shain maxid bafanov. So I just want to show you what he's doing is he's trying to combine all of the mashalim uh of the guy on the roof with the rain coming, as opposed to being indoors with the rain. And then on that husuk, hold on, yeah. On that pasuk, he then says, Deleph Tori Byom Sagrir, Had uh no, that's is this the right one? Hold on. Yeah, Hadelaf Eno Torid Rach Byyom Sagrir, who she beyom she sagru ha avim aide shiyata ruch minha adam again. He says ruchmin adam. About ashes midanim he nishtava bhozman sha toredas tamid gamyom saq. So if you wanted to get the mobim, you have to put together all the the the mashalm, but I I'm pointing this out because I've never seen this before. Usually, when you have a puzzle that's repeated, then the mufarshim just um learn from the context a different slant. This is like assembling different sukkim into one large allegory. So I the only place I've seen that is in the like you know, the recurring Mishlay characters like the Isha Nachriya or the Ishazara. So I thought that was interesting to point out. I don't want to work it all out now. That's going to be too much time. Okay, Isaac, you had a an approach for Sadjugon.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Let me just go to our parak so we can just remind ourselves what the Lefikok is on. So this was on Ruch Tzafut Kulogashim, Uptan Yuzami Lushan Saser, and Sadjugon on ours said uh Ruach Kamoshuchatzaf and Misalekesami. He's he said it removes the rain. So too, soft speech removes angry face. Yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I'd say um for the second half, I'd I interpret the causes of relationship as often causes the lush and saucer.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Where um when when someone's angry then you know, then that causes the like you know, the like quiet speech between people are like not um as a not talking to the to whoever it is that's um displaying an angry on it.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so just make sure I understand. So you're not taking the side you go on for the second half. Um that when someone is angry, you should speak uh quietly to them to remove their anger, just like the rooks often removes the rain.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay, yeah. So I'm not explaining the. I'm taking the feak off, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that uh um the anger causes the quiet speech.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um so um therefore it's better to not um bring your contentious wife into social situations because then uh um what's gonna happen is that uh your your friends aren't gonna want to or aren't gonna involve you in things, they're gonna uh have like their like soft speech you know away from you because because your wife is is contentious.
SPEAKER_04Okay, that's good.
SPEAKER_00And it's like often okay, good.
SPEAKER_04So that that's an yet another way that she can poison uh the um uh your relate your other relationships. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02If we really want it to be uh the exact um response, we should apply the uh var moracy to her. Uh-huh. But I think it's interesting because it says toad, maybe that's the point that in theory the best response would be to respond with Dvaram Rocking sir, but it's just that's not realistic. So the better approach weighing all the factors is just total. Okay, that's good. Yeah. Right. Interact with her and trying to be serious, especially with other friends, it's just not gonna work out.
SPEAKER_04Okay, right. That's good. So that actually sheds light on the parameters of Chaf Gimel, which is Panim Nizafim or uh Panim Zoafim are people who are made angry by some external thing, but if that's just her nature, then you're not gonna really uh you're not gonna help it, right? Yeah, you know what's interesting? I I don't know if I just failed to copy this. Uh or I can check. Did I not copy the entire side you go? No, I did. So I just didn't read this then. Uh that he says it's choverchaver. Okay, so I I want to give uh uh not an approach, I want to try taking this as chover chaver. Let's just see what he says on 21. Uh uh Tob Milesheves im Isha Balas Midiani Vitardanis. Okay, yeah, so yeah. So he didn't say that there. Um, oh, I know what I want to look at. The Pier Sadigan. So he says, Milas Khaver, but Malkum Zemin Khovekhaver. So she she casts spells. So I don't know if he's saying that like her her um irksomeness is like a spellcasting woman. Oh, is that like what I was saying with the coworkers? Is that shut off like that? Like anyone who's like a uh uh joined to you who is who's uh bothersome or harmful, bafapisha tsorich maskika, even though necessity demands that you you pair with him, hariha pridamenu tova yo. So yeah, he's definitely saying that, right? Because it's masculine. Okay, it's like people say solitude and isolation is better than uh a contentious partner. Yeah, so that's interesting. So w what is being added by the Lokesh, Lakashim here? It's very weird, very just weird thing. I don't think so. I think it I mean well, okay. You mean the nimshal. Yeah, Losh Nara, uh-huh. That could be. I mean, it is magic, right? You could like totally like destroy a person through words. Right. Yeah, I mean it is whisp yeah, it is whispering. That's true. I just don't see why it would need to go like you need to go through the route of kishuf. Same thing I'll show you just by the way, as Rachel Kane, I think in both places, says Yeah, uh Baischaver, Klomer, Shibesa Um Baischaver, um muchon lemaisa kishof. That's like putting less of the emphasis on the particular type of speech, and it's like the mice kishiv. So can we come? And then I think he says that similarly on ours. Let me just see what he says here. Uh Zrafiachin. Um, uh sir, mishpato umishnas. Is that also supposed to be Mishevis? Probably I don't know. I feel like it's probably Mishevis, Babes Ashis Khaver, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It could just be thinking of personality more. But she could also do Kishov on her own. Like she doesn't even have ideas of her own.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Okay, so that's interesting. Uh I I was thinking a different direction is um I think uh so why is it you know, I I maybe some maybe someone says this explicitly on uh Marbe Nashni Marbe Kishouf, right? Is that Marbin Nashne Marbi Kishuf? Isaac?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Marbin Nash and Marbi Kshuffim.
SPEAKER_04Say it again.
SPEAKER_00Marbin Nashim Marbe Keshufin.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, Kshufim, yeah. Yeah. Um so uh so the question, basic question, uh why is it that Kishuv is more common among women? You could say you could say that that back then they were prone to believing it because they were prone to believing things, you know, the you know, less educated or whatever, but I think there's a more fundamental psychological reason. Yeah, I think so, right? Is that that women tend to have less power, so they find uh imagination-based fantasy ways to like you know exercise power. So I think that it is a common cause with Ruchilis and Lashanhara, um, uh, but it's pointing to the disposition, not to the act. In other words, that a woman who's always trying to like exert power that she doesn't actually have is gonna create a lot of problems in the psychological dynamic of the relationship. Um, so like, and it could be that those are two manifestations, the contentiousness where she's trying to like nag at you to to get you to change, and then also her proclivity for Kishiv. I don't know if that's like the best I can get right now. Um, you want to do a Rashi? Okay. So Rashi, anyone wanna guess where Rashi's gonna go without looking? Unless you saw it already?
SPEAKER_02Actual medium nice.
SPEAKER_04Okay, good all good guesses. Good guesses. That's nice. Okay, so he says Tovlashevas uh Alpinas God can negate stilkshina namar. Okay. And the ishis medianim, kinesis israel, she hirshu la karish barku, but he knit. Okay, so that's kinesis israel, that's the woman. Uh that that that's standard mashal. Uhir, bais shibru bo eshatzlamim lishina. Okay, so it's a house of idols. Uh and let's just look at the Rashi on 21. Um, he says similarly, yeah, right? Bashaver, the base khaverisha. So that's Pashad. Uh Middle Shagada. Oh, it's actually in Khazal. A house in which they gather um, I don't think friends, right? Like uh peers to a karashbarfu, that's the uh Kleenex tissue, whatever that is. Thanks. Um, yeah, right. So what's the idea there? Yeah, that uh you mean Josh? Um is that uh better. So the husband is uh is God, right? Or the Shina. Um and um what do you call it? And um it is better we don't know what framework for God to withdraw his Shina than for Knessis Israel to to be an Asia's medianim to God uh in a house with idols.
SPEAKER_01And is it from God's perspective or our I think it's from God's perspective.
SPEAKER_04That's what I'd be I would guess, right? Well, I mean it could be for our perspective. I mean, ultimately it's gonna have to be for our perspective, yeah. Yeah, um uh Toglasha's Alpinus Gog. So that's God withdrawing the Shina, right? By the way, you see from here that I mean I know this in general, but like that Shina is not a feminine uh in the mushal with God, right? Like it's not uh the Shina with uh it's a husband, yeah. Clearly it's a husband, right? Then Asian Midianim, Knessis Israel, who uh did wickedness to God and provoked him with their deeds. Okay, so that's like the that's the uh contentiousness. Uh and then bash chaver is uh is the base of mikdash, he didn't say basic micdash, but presumably based micdash that has idols in it um alongside the shina. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Which reminds me of Eleonor on our tunnel where it said basically God.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. You can't have both, right?
SPEAKER_01Right. It's sort of like a trick. First of all, it distorts God, it's not others. Better to just not engage with that to engage with them in the distorted life. Yeah. So from his perspective perspective, it's pretty full Hashem, because now it doesn't make the world is a greater distortion.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_01And also from our perspective, we feel like, oh, we still have Hashan, even though we have the other gods and it tricks us.
SPEAKER_04Right. That's a good that's a good shot. Oh, Josh. Um, yeah. Um, yeah. I was thinking also just in terms of the Havamina, is I think people do feel that they would rather have like it's the same mentality of people want the base of Mikdash now. Um, I mean, not everyone from the chat, not everyone wants the base makesh now. But um, but like objectively speaking, it would be horrendous for us because we would bring so much of vodazara into the relationship that it is objectively better for God to be, you know, um outside of the house, so to speak, right? I think that's probably the uh Al Pinas Gog. He doesn't really elaborate on that, but uh um, you know, getting another you know, Baird's Midbar is actually uh I wonder what he says on that, right? Because that's a Pasik Numyahu, right? Um 2119. Let's see if he says that there. Tovshevis Baird's Midbar, Gamzel Silk Shina and Mr. Yeah, right. Yeah, but I mean that is an open Pascal Yum Yahu of like if only I could uh uh be in a uh Malone Orchim in the midbar or whatever and abandon my people, right? I think I mean I I I think that's speaking on behalf of the Shina, but yeah, someone gonna say something else? Oh, interesting.
SPEAKER_03Uh so the Silashina, it's removed from the bias. Yeah, but it's not just gone, it's it's going to either the midbar or the right.
SPEAKER_04Right, right, right.
SPEAKER_03So it just what is that narrow?
SPEAKER_04So that I think is the fact that the Shina never fully departs. Like the Shrina is not abandoning us, it's just withdrawn from the uh from the uh the bias, you know. Um not let's not bring in uh Kitcha Lashov, Kitcha Lasi Lavo things here. The the Shalina really is in the uh on the ground, uh you know, uh beneath the bias, but yeah. Uh say it again. What what's the reference?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Where's the safer presus that you gave me?
SPEAKER_04Uh-huh. Uh okay, right, right, right, right. The relationship is still extant. It's just, yeah, right. Um, okay, was there something else I wanted to do here? Uh let's look at um I don't I know we don't have that much time, but Rabin and Yonah on this. No, that's the same thing. Um who's I gonna do next? Uh oh Rabag has an interesting one. Yeah, I know that was that was that was just normal methodology. Um so this is interesting. Tovl Ladum Sheshiv Yachidi Alpinas Gog, Bizulas Machse, Umusor, Mizerem, Umimatar. So he's focusing on the elements. Okay, so that that's the shot. Okay, fine. But this is what interesting. The heir, it's also pointing us out in uh derek mushall, Imze Bzehama Rashitovla anam she lasikhlo ezer miha isha asher nivra emo lasharso. So better for man to have for his intellect a helper from a woman who was created with him to serve him. So that's the in in Rabhagi um mushal, that's the the the home air, that's the physical of the physicality, right? Your uh your psyche and your senses. Vihiy emis boded, but to be secluded, so ish miha'anashin, to be assisted in his apprehension by uh any man, vloyagin Allah vzula so, and no one will shield him, meha moneyim, from obstacles or impediments. Vitiha isha asher nivras lashar so tamin mereva emo, and the woman who was created to serve him, again, that's the material, will constantly be uh fighting with him. No one will be able to correct that which she perverted. No helpers will be able to help you, um, unless you are at peace with her, but uh, in a way that you can subdue her to your service. So, like, uh I have to go now, but like I think in a very, very broad way, if you if your intellect and your psyche are at odds, then even other helpers who would be able to help you all things being equal is not gonna be able to help that. In other words, this is, I think, another argument for why musr has to precede chachma, meaning your psychological perfection has to proceed your intellectual perfection because your distorted commer is gonna always overrule or be in conflict with your mind. And no amount of outside resources are gonna help you with that. So just something to think about there. Yeah. Okay, stop for today. Yeah, yeah.