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The Mishlei Podcast
The Mishlei Podcast
Mishlei 17:24 - Where to Look for Chochmah
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Mishlei 17:24 - Where to Look for Chochmah
אֶת פְּנֵי מֵבִין חׇכְמָה וְעֵינֵי כְסִיל בִּקְצֵה אָרֶץ:
Length: 1 hour 24 minutes
Synopsis: This evening (5/11/26), in our Monday Night Mishlei shiur, we took up a pasuk that looked promisingly rich — and rich it was! We came up with several approaches on our own, then learned the commentaries of Metzudas David, Rabbeinu Yonah, and the Meiri — even taking a brief foray into Rashi for a practical idea that is relevant for all those who aspire to chochmah! It was a great pasuk, as expected!
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מקורות:
משלי יז:כד
תרגום רס"ג
תרגום כתובים
מצודת דוד
רבינו יונה - משלי א:כב; יח:ב; יז:כד
רבינו יונה - אבות ב:ו
מאירי
רש"י
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Okay, we're on Michelet 1724. My prediction for this puzzle is that uh there are going to be too many um possibilities. So um uh I guess the the question will be uh can we rein it in and um you know and prioritize the ones that really really work out uh and like get all the nuances. Okay. Uh and having said that, there I think part of the part of the reason why is that it a lot of translators seem to say that there's a missing word in the in the Hebrew or like there's an implied word that we have to figure out. So we'll see what happens. Who wants to tackle the translation of that one? The es pine is weird.
SPEAKER_00Towards yeah, towards the face of the understander of Chachma.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so I think the way to read it is towards the face of the understander is Chachma. Okay, towards uh towards the face of the under the Mavin, okay, uh is the understander, right? Is Chachma wisdom the inixil bikte are it.
SPEAKER_00And the eyes of the fool are at the are on the edges of the land.
SPEAKER_03Okay, yeah, the fool are at or on the edge of the earth. Okay, okay, so that's uh that's difficult. Um so there's no Matsudision on this, but Sadigone says, I think the most common translation, which is uh espne means leafne, ha mevin hachachma. So he says, uh wisdom is in front of the Mavin. Uh and then Kafak says as if it is in front of him and before him constantly. In fact, let's just say wisdom is before the Mavin. Okay, uh, and I'll just type this here. Um as if it is found and before him uh and facing him constantly or continually. Okay. Oh, by the way, I'm not using my second monitor, so I might miss the chat. Um hopefully I have it here. Let me just get the chat set up. Okay, this will have to do. Okay. Um now the Targum also takes it differently. Targum, the Aramaic translation says, Apoi de suhlasana, chadyan bhachmasa. Uh, the face of the Mavin uh uh rejoices in the Sikhla, but the eyes of the fool, the umka daara, are in the depth of the earth. Okay, so I guess I don't know if this is um if he's learning, like I don't know if he's saying that the word uh kits could also mean like downward um or or what, but uh okay. R scroll says, Wisdom lies before an understanding person, but a fool's eyes are in the ends of the earth. I I think that's a little weird, a bit of a weird propos uh preposition. Um, in the edge of the earth or the ends of the earth, but whatever. Rehearse also takes this very uh non-literally. Whoever is able to understand, so that's how he's taking Mavin, finds wisdom wherever he turns. So he's learning it that it's like in his face, but like wherever he turns, I guess. And Panim or Pene literally means to turn. Um, but the eyes of a fool scan the ends of the earth. So he adds in a verb there. Altar says, right in front of the discerning person, of the discerning is wisdom, but the fool's eyes are on the ends of the earth. And he uh he acknowledges the literal translation. Um, the Hebrew says literally with the face of or with the presence of, uh, which is he's saying this right in front of, and then our YouTube friend Paskin says, The face of the understanding is to wisdom, but the eyes of the fool are to the end of the earth. So we got a lot of translations here. I'm gonna go ahead and just copy it and paste all of them into the chat. Um okay, let's see here. Hold on. Yeah, a lot of different uh possibilities. Okay, so let's do this and copy and paste into the chat. All right, that worked. Okay, so um I'm gonna move these back up again. Here. Oh, I guess I could have just done the whole thing. Hold on. Okay. How would I translate it? I would translate it as not towards the face, but um yeah, let me think how if we could if we could make a uh translation that uh maximizes the ambiguity. Hold on. Towards the face. Okay, you know, I almost want to say like this. In the face of the understanding of the maybe and the understanding person uh is Chachma, uh, but the eyes of the Casile are at or on the edge of the of the earth. Because I feel like in his face could either mean like literally in his face, or it's like right there, or it's wherever he faces. So I feel like that's probably the best uh um best ambiguous translation here. Okay, I'm gonna actually re-re-copy and paste that into the chat. Okay.
SPEAKER_05Um all right, questions and problems. Yeah. Okay, my dad is raising his hand, even though I can't see him, but that's fine. Let's see if his audio is working. Okay, I don't know if my dad is able to.
SPEAKER_03I don't know if he's having technical difficulties. Oh, there we go. Okay, try it again.
SPEAKER_08What is it meant by the edge of the earth?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, okay. What is meant by the edge of the earth? Yeah, I tried looking up what they thought about the edge of the earth and give me one second here. Um uh and this is just what Claude said. Um oh hold on, I can't access it right now. Yeah, I'm not gonna be able to find it. Yeah, all right, fine. So we'll we'll just ask it as a question. Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, is uh is Chachma also right in front of the Kasil?
SPEAKER_03Okay, that's a good question. Um, so um where is Chachma? Um sorry, where is Chachma in relation to the KSIL? Uh is it also right in front of him? Yeah, okay, good question. Yeah, Stephanie.
SPEAKER_06Doesn't this seem like an obvious idea that in front of the understander is wisdom?
SPEAKER_03Oh, okay. I think teaching us. Yeah, okay, yeah. So uh I can hear that. Um so isn't it obvious? Isn't the first half obvious? Uh okay. All right. Uh yeah, Alex.
SPEAKER_07What are we supposed to glean from the eyes of a Castille versus like the heart of a Casile? That's a good question, also. Uh why exactly is it face versus eyes?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, all right, good. Um, so what are I guess what why does the first half focus on face? Uh whereas the second half focuses on eyes. What you know what are we to I guess, yeah, those we'll keep it broad like that. Um yeah, uh hold on, there was a maybe another question there. Yeah, I guess um, yeah, why not you said why not like uh mind or heart or whatever? So why not uh uh why not you know mind or heart um for the uh for the Xiel? Um yeah, okay, uh Yitzi.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the first half of the Puslik is worded very strangely. Yeah, I don't know too much about the grammar of it, but it just something seems off. It's like yeah, relationship of where the chachma is in relation to the pneumon sounds like neged, like opposite or above, like s means the. I don't know if it can mean other things, yeah.
SPEAKER_03It also means with.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. Yeah, even so, like this.
SPEAKER_03Uh still is weird, yeah. Yeah, okay. So um uh why is the first half stated in such a weird way? Um uh, you know, the the use of s, which is not really uh easily translatable. I mean, here I'm saying it means with. Um, like for example, uh just as an example, that holich es chachamimiacham means one who walks with the wise becomes wise. Uh so the use of s is you know sounds weird and is ambiguous enough that many of the translators we read um uh feel compelled uh to add words that aren't in the PUSUC. Yeah, so what what purpose does this ambiguity serve? Okay, back to my dad.
SPEAKER_08I think I've asked this question before in other Pasukum. When we say Kasil, are we looking at a specific type of fool? Right.
SPEAKER_03Okay, good question.
SPEAKER_08When did we focus in on a certain type of fool as opposed to the other?
SPEAKER_03Okay, right. So what does the term mean in this context? Is this a generic fool, or uh is this being used in a technical sense? And if the latter, why this type of mishlac fool as opposed to another? And then while while we have that, we might as well ask, what does maven mean in this context? Uh, I was telling my high school students that maven, this is one of the few terms that made its way into English directly directly from the uh probably not directly from the Hebrew, but but from the Hebrew via the Yiddish, which is Maven. You know, the word Maven means uh someone who understands, but uh you know, I don't know if the way Yiddish people use it is the same as here. Yeah, Yetsi.
SPEAKER_01Um in terms of the relationship between like uh a bina and chachma, that says that the pne mavin is like that has chachma in front of it, not like the panim of the chachmah of the chacham has yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_03So what do we make of the uh the mismatch for um for mavin and chma, right? So in other words, either you know, either it should say um Chachma is before the face, sorry, is before the face of the Chachan, okay, or Bina, which is understanding, uh is before the face of the Mavian. Uh uh, and then it would match. Uh uh and then it would match. Stephanie, I think it might also be why I thought to myself that the first app is not obvious because if it said that Bina is in the face of the Mavian, then that almost sounds like a tautology. Like, yeah, of course it is. But uh, you know, I you're you're entitled to ask why it sounds uh uh you know Can I add one more thing to that? Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_01Um it's kind of a combination of this uh question and your father's question of what's the uh why are the Mishlaik archetypes or comparing the Maven versus the XEL?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's a good question, also, right?
SPEAKER_01You know, like other possibilities of a good versus the bad.
SPEAKER_03So I actually want to expand that into the into the opposite question, which is how are these two halves opposites? So the leading part of that question is why contrast the Mavian with the Xiel? Um, I just want to do a quick experiment here. I don't know if this is gonna succeed, but uh I don't know offhand certain Michelaic pairs. I um I know who they usually can contrast it with. Oh, there's too many of them here, probably because it does different uh yeah, it's not gonna do Mavian specific option. Maybe I can do Mavian. See I click on Mavian. Okay, that'll narrow it down um to four. Let me look up uh ha Mavian also. See, hold on uh Mavian and the Ha Mavian. Let's just do Ha Mavien. All right, let's see if this works. Oh it's not really working. Uh yeah, I don't think it's gonna take I don't think this is all of them, all right. Whatever. Alright, so that's a good question. And then also this is um uh we kind of said this earlier, but why doesn't it uh say anything about where Chachma is in in uh in relation to the Xiel? And then also um why face versus um eyes? Yeah, Isaiah?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I think you just asked face versus eyes.
SPEAKER_03Okay, yeah, we already had that from uh Alex as well. I mean, I think here we definitely need to ask what is the practical application? Uh and then likewise, who is the audience? You know, and this is interesting, you know, maybe I'll attack this onto the Casil question. I don't know, I'll ask this as another question. Does this imply that the Casil is looking for Chochma at the ends of the earth? Uh or that he's looking for something else instead of Chachma? Uh, and that's why he's looking at the ends of the earth. Because the reason why I'm asking that is in who's the audience? Like, is this for the Mavian uh the Xil or someone else? Like, it is kind of unusual. There are a couple that talk about a Xil looking for Chachma, um, but uh it's not really uh you know, not something we usually think of him as. Yeah, Stephanie?
SPEAKER_06What's the negative consequence for the Xil in this? Yeah, it doesn't seem like there's any.
SPEAKER_03Right. Uh what uh what is the negative consequence for what the Casil is doing? Yeah, in fact, I know this is in this case it feels a little bit related to the practical application, but um what is the decision-making scenario here? Uh if it even is a specific scenario. Yeah, does it's not not clear? Okay. Feel like that is most of the questions. Yeah, Yeti.
SPEAKER_01Um depending on the translation, but how is Chachma in the face of the Maven?
SPEAKER_03Right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we try to. Right. Okay, so let's put this over here. Um uh regardless of how we translate the first half, what does it mean for the Chachma to be related to his face this way? Uh yeah. Okay. All right, I think we got the main questions. I'm gonna start importing these into the chat. Um, let's start with one through seven and see if that works. Yeah, that works. And then we're gonna get it in two shots. Let's see. Yeah, we got it in two shots. I just have to change the numbers. Nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, and fourteen. Okay, so let's take our thinking minute and um you know, actually, I'm gonna give one uh one clue here, uh, not clue, but just something to work with. In fact, I'm gonna give two. Let me just give I'm gonna give uh working definitions of uh of Mavin and KSEL, okay, uh, in case you need a leg up here. So Mavin happens to be one that everyone I think agrees with the basic definition of, even though there's different applications. So let's look here where we're gonna find it. Probably in Rashi. We've talked about this before because this is a recurring Mishlayic uh um thing. So I shouldn't say Mavine, I should say Bina. So what is Bina? Does Rashi say what Bina is on three? Um he says Navon. Yeah, okay. You know what? So I think yeah, I think I'm gonna just go to my favorite place to look for the definition, which is in the Rashi on Devarim, which I'm only going to my sub stack because uh I translated into English here. Okay, so in Devarim 113, uh it's when it's talking about the requirements for uh or the desirable qualities for judges, it says, provide for yourselves distinguished men who are Khachamim, Nivonim, and well known to your tribes. Okay, so Nivonim uh is a according to some, it's a synonym for maving. Navon and Maving are two uh you know are both from the word bina. So Rashi says on that passa, Nivonim. This refers to those who are Mavin Davar Mitochdavar, who infer or derive or discern one thing from another. I guess derive or or infer is better, deduce uh or induce. Uh and then it says Arios asked Rubyosi the question what is the difference between Chamim and Nivonim? Uh Rubyosi answered, Chakim is like a rich money changer. When they bring him coins to examine, he examines them, but when they don't bring him coins to examine, he sits and does nothing. But another one is like a merchant money changer. When they bring him money to examine, he examines. When they don't bring him money to examine, he goes and brings in business on his own. Okay, oh, and I actually forgot one Rashi to read. So there is also a Rashi in the beginning of Mishle for Chacham. So on the Pasuk, Yishma Chacham Biosef Lakach, the the Chacham will hear and will increase his learning. So he says, Chacham Zebalshmua. This is someone who has heard, uh, you know, who has who possesses knowledge that he has heard. And the Navon is Musaf al-Chacham, Shiyodel Lahavin Davr Mitoh Davar, um shmuasa. That he's in addition to the Chacham, he knows how to infer one thing from another and he adds to what he has heard. So working definition here. Um, so basic definition of Chacham is one who has received knowledge. And then Mevin, oops, mayvin is one who can derive new knowledge from what he has already received. Okay, and that's what Rashi um, or that's what I went on to say in the article, which is um on a basic level, the main difference between the Chachum and the Navan is that the Chacham is a dependent learner, whereas the Navan is an independent learner. In other words, the Chachum relies on other people to provide him with knowledge, whereas the Navan is capable of deriving new insights based on what he already knows. Now, of course, it doesn't mean that he learns only independently, it just means that he can uh derive new knowledge on his own. And then if we want a working, oops sorry, if we want a working definition, I still like the working definition of the Rubinu Yona on Mishlay 122, which is uh Xilim Haim Bale Hapuulos Horaos, but uh Tanugahem. So these are uh masters or people of of uh evil actions who transgress who commit transgressions to fulfill that which their eyes seek out in matters of enjoyment and pleasure. So we we care we call this a veteran pleasure seeker. Okay, um uh someone who who you know uh you know just uh seeks pleasure um even when it you know see it seeks out seeks to fulfill his his uh fulfill his fantasies even if it means uh doing uh bad actions and transgressions. So these are just some some working definitions of of each one. Um you can also use a different definition of. If you'd like, which is this is one of his received knowledge, and then the other definition of Chacham, which is from Mesakis Tamid, which Rabbi Moscow, which always applies to Mishle, is uh who is wise? Uh one who um sees the consequences, okay, um, of his actions. Uh, and then you also, if you want the Pierre Kiyavos definition, uh, is who is wise? One who learns from everyone. Okay, so those you don't have to feel compelled to go with these definitions, but in case you need a starting point. Okay, let us take our thinking minute and think. Okay, Ariel, you're up.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um I I I think I have more of an idea for the first half, but I don't know. Maybe as I'll uh as I talk, I'll get an idea for the second half. But maybe like just just just simply, you know, a Maven is an individual who you know who um is able to you know under you know, I I think a Maven here is able to take a specific situation and and kind of just like understand the base of his chachma, you know, or or see chachma in what's before him, you know, because he you know uh for whatever reason takes a time to understand or he naturally is able to understand or whatever it is. You know, I think I think that's kind of um you know uh what the context is here. Like you know, you have an individual, uh something confusing may, I don't know, some something maybe before him that may seem a little, you know, I don't know, like uh on the surface, you know, unclear, you know, um, but but through his ability to you know uh understand it, like but there's you know, he's able to filter out the chosma versus the non-cosma thing within that confusing, you know, um uh thing before him, you know. It could be for many reasons. It could be, I don't know, maybe there was a miscommunication, a specific topic that was in, and because he's a mem, he's able to resolve it and he's able to take the chasma you know from it by I don't know, creating a situation where either you know he brings out the chasma by clarifying something or or just naturally think thinking things through, whatever it doesn't really matter how, but yeah. Um and I think I think and I and I think you know, um, you know, he you know practically like I you know he'll have like a better way of life just because you know that's how he approaches life. Now the second half of the post, like I'm not really sure only because I don't really know how to interpret the second uh the edge of the earth, but yeah.
SPEAKER_03All right, let's instead of you working it out out loud, let's uh you know you we can work on it. If you have something, you can come back, okay?
SPEAKER_02No, yeah, I uh yeah, I don't so all right.
SPEAKER_03That's good for for the first part there. Okay, let's go to Seth.
SPEAKER_09Okay, um, I look at it like this the Mavine has access to Chachmah directly before him. Yeah. And he's able to explore and satisfy his curiosity because it's all right there, and now he can play with it with his mavenness. Okay. While the XIL can look to the ends of the earth but not find the satisfaction that he desires and does not gain any fulfillment in it.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Uh so um the XIL can look even to the ends of the earth and not find satisfaction in it. Now, just to press you on that second point, are you saying that the XIL also finds Chachma, but he just can't get the satisfaction from it, or are you saying that he doesn't even get the Chachma and that's why he's not getting satisfaction or something else?
SPEAKER_09I think it applies to both.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Um, all right. So now the question is, what is it? So now I think your daughter's question is the uh is the question is isn't this obvious? Like the KSIL is someone who's not really, you know, interested in Chachmah and hasn't developed that, so of course he's not gonna find it. And the Maven is someone who is a Chacham plus, so of course he's gonna have Chachmah. So what's the uh what's the new insight?
SPEAKER_09Well, the the Xil will think that he can find it.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so that I think is gonna be where it's gonna lie. So what is the Khiddish? Okay, uh, this is obvious. Okay, so then the answer is the Xil uh thinks he can find it. Okay, so now we have to ask, what exactly uh is the Xil's mistake? And it could be more than one mistake, but like I, you know, I feel like if this is where the puzzle is guiding us, then we need to figure out like what is uh what's the what's the yeah, what's the fundamental mistake here? Or what is the Xil missing? Look, yeah, go ahead, Seth, and then Alex will add after.
SPEAKER_09Okay, so just um I was thinking that Lotatura Khail and Chem. So basically a Xil is somebody who whose eyes do do the exploring. And the Hafam or the Maven is the uses his mind to do the exploring.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_03Led by his uh by his what would what would you say is implied by the fact that his eyes are doing the exploring he's not he's not thinking. Okay, right. All right, find some that are bleeding. Okay, led by his passions rather than his mind, whereas the Mavian is guided by his mind. Okay, this is a good start. Yeah, Alex, what do you want to add?
SPEAKER_07Um, I had a thought along similar lines, but for me, the eyes at the edge of the earth had more to do with the fact that the Casil is like looking for something better outside of Chochba. Whereas like it's not necessarily the eyes are wandering, it's that it's searching for something different because there is a belief that there might be something better out there, that something we might be missing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that he might be missing. Okay, yeah, I think this is yeah, this might be uh consistent with the approach, or it might be uh uh a new approach. Yeah. Okay, give me one second here. Yeah, so maybe this is a good place to just show I I dug up in my old remember, chapter 17 was one that I taught way, way, way long ago in high school. So I dug up my interpretation, and I think it takes that approach. So my interpretation was um, and it's a little bit like Cess also, but um, just different focus. The may or maybe it's not actually, the media and the Xiel have fundamentally different values, and this difference of values will result in a different focus of their energies. The Xil is dissatisfied with reality and is therefore unable to be happy in the present. I guess I put it in terms of uh of more of like a um not in terms of the satisfaction of playing with Chachma, even though I like that. Um, instead, he is driven by a compulsive preoccupation with fantasies of future happiness. The Mavian, on the other hand, values Chachma and derives enjoyment from thinking about it. So that part is like sets. Since Chachma is everywhere, and since the Mavian has the capacity to understand and appreciate the Chachmah, then he will always be satisfied. Consequently, the Xila will spend his entire life in pursuit of an ever-receding horizon of fantasy-based satisfaction and will die without ever having lived. Uh, this is like very cohellus. Um, whereas the Mavian will live a full and enjoyable life in the present, enjoying the Chachma which lies before him at all times. So that is kind of like a mix between both of your ideas. So let me just state it in my own word, my own new words now in a more concise way, which is like this. So this is uh my old idea, which is that um the the the so the my first half is very much like Sass, is that the Mavians uh the Mavian looks for satisfaction uh in in the world of the mind. Uh and because he is a Mavian, and because Chachma uh is all around, he always has a source of satisfaction. Um uh, you know, no matter where he turns, to quote Refersh. Um, okay, but the Xiel is not interested in Chachma. That's the part that's like Alex's, because he's he is uh either he's not interested or he thinks that there's something greater in Chachma. So I put this in terms of being not being able to be satisfied with reality. Um, but I don't know if you have to say that. Um uh and instead follows his the the the fantasies of his heart and eyes. Okay, that's uh like what Seth was saying. Um uh and uh actually that's a statement of Chazal about how it works in Losuru. Hold on just one second. Um that's in Shalach. Uh and there is a statement that says Yeah, uh the heart sees, sorry, the eye sees and heart desires. I think there's another statement. The eye sees, the heart desires, and the limbs complete the act. So in other words, it starts with the eyes, but he's like looking for something that's gonna satisfy his desires. So instead follows the vanities of his heart and eyes, um uh which uh you know, so so that approach will result in unhappiness, uh, because as Kohelis points out, um, he'll never be able to get the lasting ultimate happiness he's looking for in the physical world, and he's missing out on all the Chachma before him, and uh you know he's he's perpetually in a state of discontent, so it's gonna be a bad life. Okay, all right. So I I think that uh I think we uh I don't know if these are two ideas or one idea, but I definitely feel like my idea has an aspect of Alex's and an aspect of uh Seth's. Uh so I think this is a good track. Okay, Yitzi, you're up.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, I think this is also a variation of Alex's idea. Um the the seal, his understanding of Chachma is incorrect. Like instead of working hard to understand like the knowledge that's accessible to him and uh ways that his teachers have taught him, he's looking out into the distance um to let's say other cultures and other um like I guess more fringe worldviews, and thinking that it's through that, through like a very um different way of viewing the world, that that's where Chachma is gonna be found. Okay, so instead of investing his energies into um like into like the classical Chachma sources, he thinks that the way to Chachma is uh it's gonna be like an enlightening experience, that he's gonna find this magical pill, and then he's gonna end up being a Chachum. And instead, like, yeah, kind of like a a shortcut to get beyond where the societally classic Chacham is.
SPEAKER_03Okay, good. To to to uh to a superior Chachma. Yeah, okay, good. That approach is one that is taken by the uh the commentaries. In fact, uh that might even be the Matudis W, if I remember correctly. So that that we're gonna explore uh more later on. Uh that's a good approach, though. Uh I think that fits with the words. Um yeah, it's interesting, by the way, what we're all doing with the words here because um uh Seth, did you have an explanation for the Oh yeah, you said even to the ends of the earth, meaning it's showing the extent of how far he's looking. Alex was saying edges of the ends of the earth like just above and beyond Hochmann, and I was saying the ends of the earth like like it's always gonna be on the horizon. Um yeah. Seth, you'd want to add something? No, okay, then we'll go with Isaiah. Yeah, oh sure. Okay, go ahead, Seth.
SPEAKER_09Sorry about that. Um just another idea about the eyes. Yeah, um, when you think about the eyes, the eyes never stay on one target, they're always flitting about. They always have they're moving, they're all over the place. And the XEL is all over the place and can't stay focused, oddly enough, to use the word. Where when when you someone use their mind and they they delve into it and they really get it really immersed in it. Um I think that's just a deeper level of being than somebody who's just flitting about and not able to. That's good, that's good. Good detail. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Okay, good. Uh Isaiah.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah. Um I think that's the top 400 to what other people were saying, but yeah. Um maybe like the uh the pockham. No, not the top and the maiden. Sorry. He has for him everywhere everywhere he turns there's Pokemon. He's been trained to like to be able to understand Pokemon. Clearly, otherwise you can't be a maiden unless you have some ability to understand things. Um so he's able to see it everywhere, and everywhere he turns, there's Pokema there. Um But I feel he's I think it's from what other people said. He's always like he has to like a reach to be able to understand things because he doesn't take the time to like lay down a framework of understanding things. And so like when he does want to like have um an understanding of something, he's like looking in totally the wrong places. He's like he's not staying with right in front of him, he's like scratching at straws, like looking towards just like the wrong approaches, the wrong, the wrong places to turn.
SPEAKER_03Okay, this is also gonna be one that the Mufarshim uh elaborated on in nice ways. Okay, so I mean, I'll hold off on commenting on that, but that's that's another approach that is good. Okay, Stephanie.
SPEAKER_06So I think it could be about um approaches to learning and knowledge, acquiring knowledge, like there's the intellectual approach and then there's the emotional approach. Um, if you're somebody who is an intellectual thinker, wisdom is going to be in front of you just by proxy of the way your mind works and is able to put together puzzle pieces. But if you are approaching it like you are looking for something, like something to prove your own part, um your own point correct, you will just end up confusing yourself because in pursuit of something that isn't necessarily truth, you're trying to put together a bunch of things in order to prove whatever emotionally you feel is correct to be correct.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Okay, so hold on. I just if you're approaching it for an emotional reason, trying to prove yourself correct. Sorry, say one more time why you're not gonna find it. Um or the like why the XL is like what happens to the Xiel.
SPEAKER_06Because the conclusions that they draw will be in opposition to each other because the knowledge that they're trying to acquire is going to tell them something different than what they think. Yeah, I don't know if I'm explaining it well.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so in other words, yeah, I think I think one second. So then um then uh they're not, I mean, I don't know if I'm gonna explain it well either, but they're not going to be able uh to put together a cohesive uh picture because they're judging the Chachma by whether it satisfies the emotional reason they're looking for. Um I I gotta turn off the recording and share an anecdote. Um okay, good. I like this idea. Okay, so let's dive into the Mufarshim because, like I said, there are there are a lot of approaches here, and um, I think we're actually gonna go in order this time, starting with Mitsuz David. Okay, so check this out, and then a lot of this will overlap with Isaiah and uh and Yeti specifically. Okay, so Ha Chochma Mitsuya Lifneha Mevin. Um, so Chachma um is found before the Mavian. Kiyomod Mikol Adam, for he will learn from every person. Okay, so that's actually like the Pierke Abbas definition of Chaham. He'll learn from every person. Um, I I mean I think he's inferring that from like how can it be that Chachma is wherever you go? Well, it must be that you're learning from everyone. Okay, you'll you'll see why in a second, okay? Valha Kxil, but the the Xil, Yoshotsu Ainov Bikseha Aret, uh the Xil's eyes will will wander, um, will roam, I guess, roam to the ed uh ends of the earth, kiyakshov um ain me bimokomo lil momeno, uh ki me ha kakhamim hayoshim me mirha. Uh uh, for he will think there's no one in my place to learn from um uh only the chakamim uh who dwell uh afar. Okay, so I think yet see this is like what you were saying, right? Like he's I mean, it's not uh you were a little bit broader than the Mrs. David. Mm so David seems to be talking about um uh selecting teachers, right? Or selecting people to learn people to learn from. Um, but he's saying, like, I can't get any clock more from anyone's here who is here. I have to go far away. So uh let's just analyze that a little bit more and just see what is what is like Yitzi's idea and what what's uh its own idea. So again, summary here is uh this is about learning from people. Um uh the Mavian learns from any uh from everyone and will therefore always have sources of learning accessible to him. Um the XEL rejects um these local sources and thinks he can only learn from people who live far away. So now the question is why does the XEL think this? And then what is his mistake? Now you could say, like Yitzi did for his own idea, which is that there's like an exotic magical guru type thing, or maybe it's not in the person, maybe it's in the culture, like like you know, it is you know, I think it's very, very funny uh that all of the people, I don't know about all, but the big people who brought Buddhism to the West were all Jewish people, you know. Um, and like like um I'm blanking on all their names. Uh uh I I used to know the names, but um uh but you know, you if you look them up, like uh Jack Cornfield, cornfield and um a couple of the whatever, the the the big ones, like the in the in like the Berkeley generation or whatever. So like I I think it was a thing back then in in the in the 60s and 70s of you know, uh Western knowledge is is not valuable or knowledge from your own cultural uh reserves are not valuable. I have to get it from the east, you know, like there's a mystique to that. Um, so I I think that is the uh um you know that that was the direction Yeti was taking. But I I'm sensing that Mitsuz Dovid is talking about something else, and the question is, is is it the same mistake? What do you guys think? Well, what's what's well for you can you don't have to compare it to Yetis, but what what mistake is the Xiel making according to the Mitsuz David?
SPEAKER_05Why can't he learn from people close? Any theories? Yeah, Yeti.
SPEAKER_01Um it sounds like Gaiva.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Can you elaborate?
SPEAKER_01Sure, yeah. That he he's saying, like, there's no one here who I can learn from. None of the teachers are good enough, none of them are wise enough. I need to go to somewhere far out, and that'll make my learning actual worthwhile actually worthwhile. That's all actually become wise.
SPEAKER_03Right. So it so you know you it it it seems to be that he's looking down on the people around him. And I'm gonna say, presumably, like. Like you said, because he thinks he's smarter than they are. Um and um and therefore the only people that he can learn from are the experts who live far away. Now the question I have here, it's not a problem, but just like I guess like either why does he think those other Khahamim will be b will will will be smarter than these guys, or will this same problem occur when he's there and why? In other words, like it is like like okay, I'll I'll turn this off, there's a recording and say another thing. Um like what is to stop this XEO from going to that place and then dismissing those guys? Or or maybe that will happen and that's why he can't find it. So what do you guys think there? Yeah, Stephanie.
SPEAKER_06Um, I think that he thinks that people that are further will have more knowledge is because they are surrounded by something different than him. He thinks that in his own area, he has resources that everyone else has available, and he thinks he knows everything.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_06Why would he go to other people who have the same resources as him if he's smart, you know?
SPEAKER_03Okay, so there's another problem afoot. Not a problem, there's another problem um fueling his his Gaiva. Uh, it's not just that he thinks he's smarter than all the people in his locale, but he thinks he's really like learned everything that that all the resources sorry, resources can teach him, and that these uh these far offin uh are superior because they have a different resource pool. That is definitely a possibility. Uh yeah, Isaiah.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, I like that answer to the question. I was also thinking like um a person a pool might think that like uh since he hasn't already become like wise from the people around him, then like it's like the problem is on them and not on him. Like if he's not already wise, why isn't he already wise? Obviously, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So um he thinks to himself, well, I haven't become wise from the people around me. Clearly, there's something uh wrong with them, right? Uh, and he doesn't see this as a problem in himself. Uh example of this that I see a lot uh or have seen a lot throughout the years, is not not necessarily now, but uh is you know, there are kids who in high school who think that they're very smart and they see teachers that they have issues with. Sometimes it's due to the fact that they are anti-religious and the teachers are very religious, or the teachers are trying to change them, or there's a personality clash, but then they dismiss the teacher as a source of chachma, you know, uh, and they do have this latent premise that, like, well, because this person is not suited to me, there's nothing that this person has to offer. And in certain cases, I've encouraged kids like that to, you know, there is a kid who feels like this who does have a lot of potential, and I've encouraged them, like, why don't you use if you disagree with this teacher so much, why don't you use them as like practice for refining your own positions or for refuting their positions, like engage and try to like actually get the most you can out of them. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean that you can't, you know, use them to to enhance your mind, but you know, many of them don't. Um, so that's uh that yeah, that that's a good uh uh problem. Yeah, Seth.
SPEAKER_09Um I actually want to go in the opposite direction with uh Mitsuda David, is that when you use the expression arets, it's always it's like it's to the ends of the earth, it's in an impossible place. So this person, it's nowhere, nowhere will he find somebody better than himself.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, okay, good. I like that also. So um, so Mitsudas David isn't saying that um that the seal will uh you know actually travel to a different place and attempts to learn with the Chachamim. Um there. Uh rather it's it's essentially uh you know, he's essentially saying that that these chamim live in in utopia, right? These chamim are are in this utopia uh which the seal is never actually gonna find. Okay, good. That is that approach is supported by the Rubin Yona, which we're gonna read in a second, uh, is never going to find. Yeah, Yetsi.
SPEAKER_01Um, I'm not sure if this fits exactly with the Mitsura Stavid.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I I wonder, and I know we try to stay away from psychologizing too much in Michelai, but I wonder if like part of it can be a motivation of wanting to be unique, like not just wanting to say what other people are saying, but to learn a little more than them. But it's a shortcut to I now know something that no one else does. Right. Um, I'm now like uh expert in this worldview. And if we take that approach, then when the person goes goes to the other location, so they might learn and be happy with that so that when they return, they can have the be in this unique position. Yeah. Now at the end of the day, like it does relate back to their gaiva and them wanting to be respected and taking like a shortcut um to get there.
SPEAKER_03Okay, good. Uh yeah, so this one is supported by one of the few other mishlaypsukim that I know of about the seal's relationship with Chachma, uh, which is actually the first Mishlay Shira that I taught uh in 2020 when I started giving these regular misleigh shiram. 18.2. Lo Yachputs Ksil Bitfuna, ki imbi his galas libo. The fool does not desire understanding, but only in in showing off his mind. Uh, that's how some of the mufars say it. Um, and uh, I think actually Rabin Yona says it. Yeah, Rabin Yona says, Kashi Dabr Haksil Bukhma, when the Kxil uh speaks in Chachma, Lo Yakhputs Lahavein or Ladasa Emas. He doesn't want to understand and to know the truth. But just to glorify himself, and to reveal his mind in the depth of his thought. And therefore he doesn't listen to anyone else and doesn't uh deliberate on their words. And that is uh testifies about him that he does not desire understanding, because if he did desire it, Yakshiv Lidri Khaverov, he'd listen to what they said, V Syashibem, and he would uh deliberate about them, Vishkleim Bemoznai Sedek, and he would weigh them on righteous scales, in order to arrive at truth, because the more opinions will uh complete the uh the research. So that's a that's a good support for that. Okay, let's move on to Rabina Yonah who takes a similar approach, but he he really fleshes it out. And I I, you know, I um uh I still want to give a uh a big shear where I go over all the Mefarshin and like showcase good examples of like why I like them. I think this is a good example of why I like Rabin Yona because he hits every facet of what I love Rubina Yonah on Mishlay for. Okay, so this is um a long transl uh thing. So this is the clawed translation below, which I did not vet, so I'm gonna go ahead and translate my on my own. Khar Bhyarna, we've already explained Inyan Mevin, uh, the idea of a mavin, kihu ohiv lahin divri chachma. He loves to understand uh principles or words of Chachma, Vyesh Lo Leev Lahavien, and he has the mind to understand them. So there's two things there's the desire and the ability. If he's lacking one of these qualities, either the desire or the ability, lo yikari mayving, he will not be called a mayveen. But alkane amar, therefore he said, espne mevin chachma, uh, that uh we'll see how we translate this. Translates this makomo anashim gadolin bhachma. If there are no people in his place that are great in Chachma, Yidrosh me is ko ish mashu yudea, he'll just seek out from every person whatever he can learn. And he'll learn from everyone. So this is like uh Mitsu's David, or Mitsu's David's like him. Vagaram lo zavaso l'achma. Um, and this will be caused by his love of Chachma. In other words, he's gonna get it wherever he can get it from. Al Kin, therefore, Yihna Lilmod mikol adam, he will subjugate himself to learn from every person. Kakaton Kagadol, whether uh you know, the the small like the great. Oh, that's quoting the Ramam there. He'll accept the truth from whoever says it. Okay. Vasheni's second thing is kihu bokin umakir ere ha devarim asher Yishma. He will discern and recognize the value of the things he hears. And if they are uh true and proven, he will accept them from every person. Vim Ya Gia Akar Kach Lamacham Anashim Khachamim, and if he reaches another place uh with great khochamim, yishmah v Yosef Lakak, he'll listen and he'll gain more learning. And he'll uh he'll his soul, his soul will be assisted in what he learned before to increase the the the produce of chachma. Um as uh Khazal said, a full vessel um uh will hold liquid, and an empty vessel will not hold liquid. That's interesting. I had not seen that in the context. Um excuse me. Shneemar Yahav Chakma La Chakimin. It says in Daniel uh that God gives Chachmah to those who are wise, meaning that if you're wise, then the Chachmah you get is even more. Okay, so let's just summarize here, first of all. Um, so he says, so summary is uh Mavin Oops sorry Mavin is um someone who loves Chachma Um and uh and has the ability to grasp it. Okay, so such a person will seek Chachma from anyone and everyone, even those who are uh who are on a lower level, um and he'll uh gain more and more, which will enable him sorry, enable him to gain even more. Okay, so let's now look at the second part. Uh seal bikte art, lo Yomon means he will not learn from the people in his locale whatever they have of Chachma, of Al Yomar, he'll say, Me yitim de elakamploni. If only I could go to such and such a place, but uh be doing that has these uh these known chachamim. Uh the the torah of akin meepim, and I'll seek torah from their mouths. Maybe he's not gonna end up going there uh if he has that view. Um uh vanimsa neor virik mina chamman. And it turns and consequently, he will be um uh empty of chachma. But as Khazal say, I'll tomar kish uh fne shemalo tipane. Khazal say, don't say when I'm free I'll learn. Uh maybe you'll not be free. Vigramlo lixil shalojomon mikuladam, gavaso vagoda lavavo. And the thing that causes the fool to uh not learn from every person, as Yetsi said, is his hardiness and his high-heartedness. Al Kin, therefore, Lo Yichna la uh lilmon mikoladam. He will not subdu uh subdue subjugate himself to learn from every person. And the second thing that will uh we'll see if mute avasa chachma. Oh, yeah, the second thing that causes this is a is the the lack of love of chachma. The only thing he wants in Chachma is to to basically uh you know glorify himself over others, lord over others. And the third thing is kilo yakir erechat varim shiishma, mechatha dvarim atvam, he does not value the things that he hears in and of themselves. He only cares about the speaker whether uh the the person who said it is has has that reputation. Okay, so this is a really, really rich for being on it here. So he says like this Um The Xiel will not learn from the people in his locale, but will fantasize uh uh about going to some far-off place of learning. Um, and then because he he views that as the only place he can learn, he will likely not end up going there. Um in the meantime, um his pride will prevent him from learning from all the people who do have Chachma to offer. Um uh and uh his his uh covod slash ego orientation uh will close him off to true love of Chachma. Love of Chachma and Um he will not properly recognize recognize the value of what he hears because he only cares about Chachamim with the type of of reputation that he himself craves. Okay. I mean, I think if we had just read this Rubin Yona uh first, then we have a lot to talk about. But I feel like this is just really fleshing out a lot of things that we already said. Um, I'm not seeing any absolutely new idea. I mean, again, this is a great Rubin Yona, um, except for the fact that it's interesting he calls him out for making an excuse that, or not you could either read this as making an excuse, or you could read this as like setting himself up to fail, that this mission of Pierre Gavis that says, When uh when I I'll learn when I'm free, the only person who says that is either the person who is deluding himself into thinking that he'll get a time when he's free and that's not gonna happen, or it's a person who doesn't really want Chachma. Like, like uh I'll give you an easier to relate to example because Chachma is a there's a lot of religiosity tied into that for Jews. But like, if someone told me I love reading, I just don't have time to read. I and let's say they don't, they don't uh they don't read, I would not believe them. I would think that they maybe they used to be someone who loved reading or they fantasize about being someone who wants to who wants to read. But I I think people who love to read find time to read, even if it's only like here and there. Like, like if someone says, like, I'll I'll I love reading, but I'm not gonna be able to read till I'm retired. I I just don't think they love reading. So same thing here, like I don't think he really loves Chachma, because if he did, he'd get it from wherever he could take it. You know, and you read about like people who grew up, uh, you know, to who became great Kochman who grew up in poverty, like they went to any length to get it, like Hillel on the roof of the base midrash, or like um, who was it? Um uh one of the great thinkers or scientists in like the last couple hundred years would go around and pick out remnants of wicks from candles that he saw, and then like put it together to be able to read by the light in his room at night after he had a whole day of working. Like, like that's really, really someone who loves Kochma. Yeah, yeti.
SPEAKER_01Um, two questions. Number one, how does that idea fit into the words of Kish Efna Ashna Shemalotipana? Because it sounds like the thing it's a the mission in Avos is saying maybe you won't end up being free. Not that actually don't mean it.
SPEAKER_03That's that's a good point. Um give me one second if I can remember that. Shallotupana Let me just check really quickly and see if Rubina Yona explains it there. I wouldn't do this otherwise, other than the fact that we just learned Rabina Yona and he might have something to offer there. Um two six.
SPEAKER_05Rubini. Okay. Uh okay.
SPEAKER_03Oh, very, very short. Kilo teda ma yeladyom. So you don't know what the day may bring. Uh basically something new could come up the next day, uh, because people will bring the the news and you have to go there. There's no lack of new things that come up every day. And then you'll go out of the world without Torah. Yeah, so he learns it that you're not going to get the opportunity. So I'm I'm giving a different interpretation of that.
SPEAKER_01Okay. One one other question I had is what about this Rabbinu Yonah makes it a classic Rabbinu Yonah that um shows the appeal and what he usually does.
SPEAKER_03Uh I think because he spells it out so clearly um and just gives a satisfying shot um and brings proof text from Khazal. Uh, I think the only thing that this Rabbinu Yona is not doing, because it's not necessary here, is Rabininu Yona also will explain oh no, he is defining his terms, and he's defining his terms. He's defining Mavin. He doesn't define Xil, but uh actually he does define Xil. The quality of Kxil we said earlier that he he wants Kochman in order to glorify himself. So yeah, it's the it's the thoroughness, the explicitness. And by say thoroughness, I mean he's like giving like like an elaborate explanation, like literally talking it out. The explicitness in that he's giving explicit definitions, the support from Hazal and other uh did he give other Psukim here? Uh yeah, like the Puzzan Daniel, um and the psychology. I mean, you know, again, as much as I said that uh that Rabbi Moskowitz said don't get caught up in the psychology, the reason Rabbi Moskowitz told me to learn Renayona is he called him the psychologist of Mishlay. Uh and uh and and going into the motives here and the mistake that he's making, I mean it's both. It's the mistake and like the short-sighted mistake that he's making and the psychology. So it's just like really juicy. And also it is um clear to read. There are rainas that are like, I don't know what was going on that day, but like it the sentences don't really make sense. I don't know if it's like a corrupt manuscript or whatever. This is also like easy to read. So good question.
SPEAKER_01Okay, thanks.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Uh but yeah, the only thing that he does not do here because it's not necessary, is sometimes he does a good grammatical analysis, uh, but I don't think there's anything that really needs it here. Um, Stephanie.
SPEAKER_06Um, so you were saying that according to was this the last source we did? Sorry, I got this for a second. Yeah, um, that he might not even want Chachmah. He's just like looking at the Yeah, I that's what I was saying.
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, I was saying that based on Rabin and Yonah saying that he his desire for Chachmah is only to become great and dominate through it.
SPEAKER_06So what I was thinking that he I don't know if it it fits into this approach because I might have misunderstood. Um, was that he wants Chachma, but he wants a shortcut to get it. So he wants to look for a trusted source for them to tell him kind of what to believe. And that's why he's going out of his way to like choose someone.
SPEAKER_03I see.
SPEAKER_06So I was trying to see where I got that from the words. Yeah, I think.
SPEAKER_03So you know, I I I mean, the one who mentioned shortcut tonight is Yitzi. And uh it could fit into this. The only reason I'm taking my direction is because we see I I I think Rubin Yona is tying these two together, which is well, actually, all three. I think Rubin Yona is making the haughtiness the main thing, that his only attachment to Chachma is so he could be viewed as great. So he's not gonna learn from anyone who he views as beneath him. He's only gonna care about Chachma that makes him feel great, and he's only gonna learn from people who have a reputation for being great. You know, like this is like to me, the modern equivalent of this is um is oh, actually, I have another story about this. Uh hold on. Do I want to share this on the thing? I think I can share this on the thing. This happened so long ago. Um no, I'm not gonna share it on the thing, on the recording. I don't think this person's gonna listen. It's as much in Raviniona. Okay, but you know who it's in? I think it's the Mi'iri. Okay, so let's go on to the Mi'iri now. Uh moving right along. Okay, so again, I'm gonna read the Hebrew here. So he gives a bunch of interpretations. Arlamavin, so he ties this to um the next Pussad, which we're we haven't read yet, uh, and he starts off by justifying the term. So he says, I Are the Mavian. This is a uh a lesson for the Mavian. Shiloyihu Hakmos Ramos Bainav. This is actually a different profile, okay? Says that the the Mavin should not view the Chachmus as too high for him, as too ex too like lofty. Just the same as it was back then. Like the kid who's beginning to read a big book and he looks to see how many pages there are, right? Umisialin vitoho uh la rukhuso. And then that gives rise in him to laxity and impatience at its length. So in other words, we're talking to someone who really wants Chachmah, who he calls a Mavin, and saying, don't be discouraged by the by how out of reach it seems. The Mavin learns whatever is in front of him. He does not worry about the lengthiness of the Chachmah. One chapter does not hold back his friend. And if he he uh only learned one page, so he's benefited himself from learning that one page. And then he'll add little by little knowledge until he he grasps it. Okay, so in other words, don't be discouraged. Um oh hold on, I gotta I gotta read a quote uh in a second. Yeah, actually, you know what? Hold on. Um let me see if I can find this. This should be fairly accessible. Uh Anne Lamotte. Bird by bird quote. So there's this book called Bird by Bird by Anne Lamotte. And yeah, let's see if this captures the uh Yeah, she says 30 years ago, my older brother, who was 10 years old at the time, was trying to get a report on birds written that he'd had three months to write, which was due the next day. Uh we were out at our family cabinet in Bolinas when he was at the kitchen and he was at the kitchen table close to tears, surrounded by binder paper and pencils and unopened books on birds, immobilized by the hugeness of the task ahead. Then my father sat down beside him, put his arm around my brother's shoulder, and said, Bird by bird, buddy, just take it bird by bird. Um, and I think in the same quote, let's see if it's it's the same thing. No, let's see. N Lamotte headlights. She says, Oh yeah. So she was quoting someone else. E. L. Doc Doctoro said, once said, Writing a novel is like driving a car at night. You can only see as far as your headlights, but you can make the whole trip that way. Uh, and then she says, You don't have to see where you're going, you don't have to see your destination or everything that will pass along the way. You just have to see your two or three feet in front of you. Uh, this is right up there with the best advice on writing on life I'd ever heard. So I think that similar like vein, uh, that similar vein is the Iri's advice here is like it could be very, very daunting to look at at like how long a book is, or how long the sahta is or how many words are in the vocabulary of the language you're trying to learn, uh, or how many mishlappes them there are, but like, you know, you just go bird by bird and uh you know one at a time, and like you accumulate it. And look again, I mean, I think a good example of this. I was just saying um to you know, I'm gonna just look here one second. Um, I don't know if Claude's gonna get this, but um how many total Psukim are in Mishlei chapters 20 uh 10 through 25. I don't know if it's gonna know this, but we'll see if we get an approximation. Um but you know, as you know, like I teach one or two Psukim per week, and I started six years ago, and I'm given sheer on each one, and we'll just see how many it says. 515 Psukim, right? So like you know, if if you had said like, oh, you're gonna give sheer on every Pusuk in chapters 10 through 25, I would have been like, well, that's gonna take like you know, decades, not decades, six years, you know. Um, so like, and and uh and we've you know, those of you who've been with me for you know much of the time, like you've partaken of that, like one PUSUK per week, you know, or as Remy Moskwood said about about Mishle, he said, you know, I have grandmothers who learn Mishle on my you know with me once a week, and they become they become thinkers through through once a week uh uh you know learning. So that's his uh his message there. Yeah, Yeti.
SPEAKER_01Uh I hope I'm not breaking one of the cardinal rules of this uh Mishle shear. Yeah. I'm quoting Rashi.
SPEAKER_03I actually have Rashi highlighter to quote.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay, because it's very but I'll tell you why.
SPEAKER_03It's also it's it's it's uh I I I got a full full confession here. I I think I saw it in the Miri first, and then I saw that Rashi said it. Um so we're gonna get there um in a second. Um actually, yeah, it's it's in the next paragraph. Okay, so first he says, uh, we didn't do his second half here. Oh, I think this is a typo bikte art. So the Xil looks at the end of the matter. Vyakshov Ladas, Zos Amil Hubeinav. And he he thinks that to know this is a toil in his eyes. Vyus rashalminhal limud legamri, and he'll he'll give up hope on learning altogether. Uh or sorry, he'll uh be lacks about learning altogether. And he'll get mad at his father. That's tying into the next Paso. Okay, so then he quotes um Khazal, who Rashi quotes, um Rabasinazal Darshu alzeh, Shaksil Omer, Heakani Lume Torah. The Ksil says, How can I learn Torah? Nazikin Shloshimprakim. Nazikin is 30 chapters. Uh back then uh they called Bhava Kama, Bhava Messiah, and Bhava Basra, all one Masakha just called Nazikin. Kalim Shloshimprakim, and Kalim is 30 chapters. Shabbas Esrimbar Ba'praprakim. Shabbas is 24 chapters. Um, and then I'll learn the way that people who came before me learn. Let's see if Rashi says the same way. Uh Rashi, which I highlighted, see, proof I highlighted it. Uh oh, this is not the right translation. Lomar inachambuti lafani, rechoke. It's too far from me. Okay, fine, that's how people have always learned it. Yeah. Um, so it is really interesting is that you know it's all about the framing, right? That uh that you know, they're both looking at the same amount, uh, but one of them looks at the whole thing in aggregate and says, How can I do this? And the other one breaks it up and says, I if I do a little bit a day, then I'll get uh I'll get a lot. Okay, Miri goes on, and I think he says some similar stuff. Um, yeah, Yeti.
SPEAKER_01One thing that uh the words of Khazal, I think, added is it's all saying like this is what the wise men before me did, where uh right like making like it's his own kiddish, but like anybody it's coming to anybody who became wise did it this way. That's how they got there, right? Right, and like it's uh yeah, it's there's something about it that's like uh like more sobering. It's uh it's following the path of the people before you and trying to get the to where they got the same way that they did. Yeah, that's actually good because I think the thing the Xiel does of changing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think it's it's the Xiel is doing a perverse version of it, uh, which is uh let me just type this out. Insight is from the Hazal, um, is um both the Chaham or I guess the Mabian and the Xil are looking at what great Hahamim um uh have accomplished, um uh but whereas the KSIL is saying, how can I ever become that great of a chaham when there's so much work to be done? Um the Mavian says, How did that guy become such a great cham? Um little by little, right? Uh bird by bird. Yeah, now that doesn't help when you're looking at people like the Vilna Gaon, uh who were super geniuses, uh, and I think that's where it can break down, not in principle, but in terms of the type of educational role models that you um that you uh hold up in front of kids. I I think if you emphasize the super genius, then that is gonna do them a disservice because then they're gonna feel like either you need to be inherently a genius or not. Uh, but if you put in front of them people like Ruby Akiva, who started late, or someone like the Nitsiv, who was not a genius, uh, and he did do it bird by bird, uh, then I think that's that's actually inspiring, and that you could model yourself after that. Okay, going on in the Mi'iri, some of these are gonna be similar. It's possible to say, oh, sorry, I want to make one more point here, which is that um, which is another insight is I think the Miri is uh is calling this person um a Mavian or a Xiel based on their attitude. Okay. Uh I don't like the way he's talking about it does not seem like it does seem like he says this is advice to the Mavian, but I think it it sounds like he's giving advice to anyone who's starting off in their learning and saying, well, if you give up, then either you are a XEL or you're gonna be a XEL if you give up for this reason. Whereas if you actually so it's either their attitude or or their destiny, right? Uh if they follow, follow this path. Um yeah, whereas if you if you look at the road in front of you and you say, I'll take it little by little, that then you're you're gonna become a Mavian. But you're not in other words, I don't think you're a Mavian or XEL right now, is the point that I'm I'm trying to make the way he's learning it. Which is also an interesting methodology point initially here is that that we've said before that such them that talk about the Tsadik and the Russia might not be talking to a or usually are not talking to a tzadik in Russia, it's talking to a someone who's on their way to becoming either one. So I think there's a good support for that. Okay, Fshalafarsh, it's possible to explain Shah Mevin Chafets Belimura Chachma Ad Shadomilok Iluhi L Fanov, that the Mavin uh desires the learning of Chakma until it appears to him like something that is in front of him. That his thoughts and his mind are on it. To learn it easily. Baksiel, domelok iluhu bakseh arts. Okay, I think it's just uh uh another way to give uh to read the words to be referring to this idea that the Chachm views the Chachma as accessible because it's right in front of him, and the the Xil views it as at the end of the earth, meaning it's beyond his reach. Okay, Vyeshma Farshim Dirk Pshat Shamavin B'Azer Mu'athu Lamid. The Mavin learns with little help. He does not bother himself to leave his place. Umavir Sha'ato Bachamim Hamitsuyim lobiro mehem. And he passes his time among Khachamim who are found in his city and he learns from them. He thinks that the the local Khachamim are Xilim like he is, and he'll he'll go out to far off lands and he'll return in his foolishness. So that's similar to Rubin Yonah and uh the Mobbim or the um Matsudas. Okay, last one here, I think, for tonight is the Derek Nister. This is interesting. Rama's uh Heina Lefara Shaha Mevin Mamin Apia Kabola Ha Nuvuais. So the Mavin will believe based on the uh uh tradition from Navua. And when he is able to understand what he has received through Navua through analysis, meaning, in other words, you get the idea through Navua, through the Mesora, and then you understand it. Tovlo, it's good for him. Um he'll get this without additional um um his chakmus is like um like philosophical training, uh but he'll get it straight. Aval Haksiel, but the makes himself philosophical. Um vakish bhkol and munosov etos mirachok, and he looks for far off um uh strategies or counsels for his immunos. And all of his like philosophizing is gonna bring him confusion. Okay, this is a classic miri here, which is uh derek Nistar, is um uh actually uh Rabbi Zimmer gave a sheer called um what do you call him? I think he said first Jew, then philosopher. Okay, meaning first you get your beliefs from the Mesorah, and then if you can verify them through philosophy, um then you'll you'll have the best of both worlds. But if you start off with philosophy uh and attempt to make uh really foreign philosophy, right? Uh foreign philosophy and attempt to make that into your foundation, that will get you into trouble. Yeah, okay. So not not not the most um uh um what do you call organic shot, but I think he's saying that the you know, remember Chachma means received knowledge. So the Maving is going to start with the Chachma that's in front of him, which is what you receive from the Mysora, but the Ksila is gonna start off in the far-off places. It might be a similar emotion to what Yitzi was saying with the looking for like the exotic Chachma, uh, or like there being Yonah was saying of only wanting to learn stuff that's like philosophically like erudite, you know. Okay, I think I am exhausted for tonight. So let's just do a quick review and then we'll stop for tonight. So we said, going back, um, so we had this like cluster of ideas that were kind of related, which is that it's about where you get your satisfaction. So the the Mavian gets his satisfaction from thinking, and there's always stuff to think about in front of him because he's focused on Chachmah. He's looking at a life of the mind, uh, and he'll always get satisfaction and will uh not get into trouble. But the Xil is not satisfied with that. He's gonna be looking for satisfying his fantasies and far off, you know, either like I said, like the horizons, like more and more and more. Alex was saying something that's like beyond Chachma. Seth was saying, you know, just following his eyes and and uh being uh having like a um hedonistic wanderlust. Um and so he's not gonna be happy. Uh Yitsi said the idea uh is that the Mavin is going to take the classical accessible routes to Chachma and he'll find it. Whereas the Xila is going to look to far-off lands, gurus, cultures, shortcuts, something that is gonna be like uh exotic, you know, and uh he's not gonna end up getting it. Uh Isaiah was saying that the Mavian is gonna have Chachma wherever he turns, um, but because he's a Mavian and he works on his mind and cultivates that, so he can see Kachma through that perspective. But the Xiel does not uh have that proper mindset and he's gonna be looking for stuff and miss out on all the Khachma in front of him. Stephanie was talking about uh acquiring knowledge through intellectual means with your mind versus through some emotional motive, like trying to prove that you're correct or whatever. And uh you're not gonna come up with a coherent chokma then. Matsudis David said that uh it's about who you learn from. The Xil will uh the Mavian will learn from anyone and he'll get Khachma everywhere. But the Mavian's Gaiva, his haughtiness will prevent him from learning from the local people, um, either because he thinks he's smarter than all of them, or he thinks that it should be automatic and I haven't learned from them, so it's their problem. Or that um that uh what do you call it? Um that you know he thinks he's exhausted all of his resources, um, or he just has a crazy unrealistic, idealistic idea of what a Chaqam is, and he's not gonna learn, and uh, and therefore he's not gonna gain. Rabini Yonah has a similar approach, but makes it focus really on the Gaiva, on the uh the humility of the Mavian and the love of the of the wisdom. So he'll subordinate himself to anyone to get whatever Chacham he can. And the XEAL is just gonna uh only learn for his own greatness and from great people, and uh and he'll say I can only learn from the best places and he won't even go learn. Um, and then the Miri uh says really this is about um being daunted by the task and viewing Chachma as too lofty and then getting intimidated and never starting. Uh, whereas if you take it bird by bird, then you'll you'll you'll get it. Um, and you'll follow the way that you'll use that aspect of the chamim as a role model, not their where they reached, but how they got there. Um, and then this last interpretation about using the accessible to you, uh, and then uh uh philosophy, not the other way around. Okay, very rich, Pasuk. And there is more even to get from here, uh, but I am exhausted. So uh let's stop for tonight. And Blinetta will continue next week. Thanks for coming. Uh and yeah, thanks. Bye.