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The Mishlei Podcast
The Mishlei Podcast
Mishlei 17:25 - How a Foolish Son Affects His Parents
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Mishlei 17:25 - How a Foolish Son Affects His Parents
כַּעַס לְאָבִיו בֵּן כְּסִיל, וּמֶמֶר לְיוֹלַדְתּוֹ:
Length: 1 hour 34 minutes
Synopsis: This evening (5/18/26), in our Monday Night Mishlei shiur, we learned one of those pesukim that looked suspiciously like many others we've done — recently, in fact. The challenge was clear: would we be able to discover a new insight? We found a hook right away and came up with a lot of promising approaches — with lots of methodology along the way — but nothing QUITE worked ... that is, until a newcomer to the shiur who had never learned Mishlei saved the day by suggesting an excellent interpretation! We then learned a few approaches from the meforshim, but that one innovative idea is what made the night a real success!
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מקורות:
משלי יז:כה
תרגום רס"ג
תרגום כתובים
גר"א
ר' זרחיה חן
רי"ד
מצודת דוד
רבינו יונה
עמנואל הרומי
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The Torah content for this month has been sponsored by Meir Areman, l'zeicher nishmas Zelda bas Ziesel, his grandmother, whose yahrzeit is on the 21st of Sivan.
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Okay, we are doing Mishlay 1725. And uh before we do this, then I just I I don't think I acknowledged this last week, but we have to acknowledge that um last Friday was the art site of my Rebbe, uh Rabbi Moskowitz, who introduced me to Mishle and to all other Torah. And anyone who has benefited from uh any of my Torah, especially Mishlei, then that is due to Rebbe Moskowitz. So um uh that is just something I wanted to uh publicly express uh gratitude for. And I'm very uh grateful that uh I I I have a very distinct memory of, you know, again, his Yorte was was on Friday, so he he died uh seven days before Shavuos. And so I remember, you know, going back to Seattle for his uh funeral and then coming back, you know, like a couple days before Shavuos, and then coming back to my Mishleishir in Yeshiva and sitting down and being like, well, you know, what better way to honor his legacy than to continue doing what he was doing and to teach, you know, to teach the safer that he taught me. So uh that that was a comfort for me. Um, okay, so uh our puzzle today is uh I said this in the in the uh teaser, which is that the challenge is gonna be this is gonna sound like many other Tusukim that we've we've done. All right. So the challenge will be to see some new idea and some new angle here. And given our track record, whenever we have something like this, then we usually do a good job. Okay, but we'll start as we always do by just translating this, all right. And there are a couple ambiguities here. So ka'as la aviv being qsil umemer liola de to. Who would like to try to translate?
SPEAKER_00Um so anger towards the father of a son makes him a Xil.
SPEAKER_07Okay, so you got all the right words. Um different different order, though. Yeah. So I think the only way to translate, I mean, what you said is like, you know, um, you know, you're doing it in order here, but I think the way you would translate it is so Ben Xil is a sorry, hold on just a second here. A sorry, hold on just one second. A Ben Xil. So let's just translate this as a foolish son. Okay, Kaaslaviv. How would you translate that? Or how do you I forgot how you translate it?
SPEAKER_00Is is anger to his father?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, is anger to his father? Okay, umerliolatto. Now, I don't know if you uh have any intuition on uh about this.
SPEAKER_00If you just saw the word, um something to his birth, like uh yeah, I'm not sure. Something about anger also.
SPEAKER_07Okay, so there are two translations to the word memer, all right. Um, and uh the first are our usual um translators here. Um, so I'm gonna talk a little bit out loud, uh, more than I usually do in terms of what we're doing. Uh um uh just to have a methodology refresher here. So we're we're going after we try translating on our own, we go to the Hebrew translators and then the English translators and see what they have to say. So all of these Hebrew translators, Matsustium says Memer is Milosh and Murius, okay, which means what? Bitterness. Right, and bitterness, okay, liolat. What is it? Yoletus.
SPEAKER_00Um birth.
SPEAKER_07Oh, yeah, birther. Okay, right. Right. Let's say birther sounds weird to say that to she who bore him. Okay, so it's talking about his mother, okay, but she who bore him is the way that she's been uh she's being talked about here. Okay, so that is the Matsudis Sion translating memer as bitterness, okay. And you have the same thing. Sadigon here says um uh translates the first word kaas as haronaf, which is anger or wrath, and then memur as murirus as bitterness, and then the targum says a different thing. Okay, so let's let's uh uh move this up here. Okay, so the Targum, who is the Aramaic translation, says um machbid avui, um bra sikla machbid avui. So a foolish son is anger to his father or burdens his father. Okay, um so there's that, okay, and then um, and then we have one more translation also. So a bunch of these commentators here, uh, the Ridd and the Rabin of Zrach Yachin and the Gra all say that Memir comes from the word Mamrim, which means rebels. Okay, uh, so the Zrachin has a whole long thing here, and he says it would it is um related to the word merry, which means uh rebellion, and then Vilnogon also says um that it means um rebellion. Okay, so let's just uh put all this together here and I will put this into the chat. Hold on, oops, hold on just one second. Okay, so we've got a foolish son is a anger to his father, and memory either bitterness or rebellion to she who bore him. And then let's look at the English translations here. We have you'll see another word, and this might just be an archaic term, but uh, you'll see what they use here. So art scroll says the foolish son is an annoyance to his father. Okay, uh, you know, I'm gonna do this also, hold on, is caus. So cause is either anger or burden. What is that? Or a burden or annoyance, um uh okay, and a rebellion to the one who bore him. Okay, and then rehearsed says a foolish son is a vexation to his father. I never quite knew what vexation is. I I take vexation as like a combination between frustration and anger. Uh, but I have no idea if like this was a uh, you know, if this is like an archaic um usage that uh you know has some different meaning. Altar also says vexation to his father, a foolish son, and gall to her who bore him. I think he's using gall because that's a word for bitterness and for, you know, uh, like we use that, you know, you have the gall to do this to me. And then Peskin, uh, our YouTube friend says an idiot son is an irritation to his father, uh, and a source of bitterness to she who bore uh to her who bore him. Okay, so let me do this as I usually do. Um, did I get all of them? A foolish son is caas, anger or a burden or annoyance. I'll put in vexation or uh vexation uh to his father, and memir, bitterness or rebellion to she who bore him. Okay, so let me copy and paste this into the chat. Okay, next step is we are going to ask all the questions and raise all the problems that we can without giving any answers.
SPEAKER_10Okay, so what are the questions and problems?
SPEAKER_11And here you we raise our hands. Anyone? Yes, Lori.
SPEAKER_13Hi everybody. Um so I'm not even sure how this all works because it's my first time here, but the first thing that came to my mind when I read this is I feel like why is a foolish son only an annoyance to the father, but a bitterness to the mother?
SPEAKER_10Okay, good.
SPEAKER_13So negative con you know, connotation regarding the mother.
SPEAKER_07Okay, good. So why is caos, and I'm gonna not translate cause in my question just because we can uh you know treat this as like a drop-down menu here. Why is caus associated or sorry, why why is caus the reaction that the foolish son provokes in his father, but bitterness uh the reaction he provokes in his mother? Okay, good question. Yes, Rifke.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think that it's also interesting. I don't know, maybe this is just like lashone and it doesn't really make a difference, but I feel like it's interesting that it's specifically like Av, but it doesn't say like you know, A or you know, whatever it would say. It says yeah, interesting.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, so why is the father called Av? Okay, which is the i.e. the the normal term for father, uh, but the mother uh is called you know uh she who bore him, okay, as opposed to aim, which is the normal term for mother. Okay, and look, there are a lot of other psukim in Mishle that say it normally. Like, for example, the very first puzzle in the main book of Mishle says, uh, yeah, Ben Chakham Yisamachav, a wise son makes his father rejoice, been k still to gas emo, and the uh foolish son is the uh you know causes sorrow to his mother. And use the word emo. That's just the normal way to say it. And there are plenty of other psychom like this. Okay, so Shlomo knows the word uh mother. Okay, uh, Alex.
SPEAKER_05I'm curious if this would apply to a child who's adopted because of the specific language of she who bore him.
SPEAKER_07Good question. Okay, good. Uh so let's I'm gonna actually tack that on to um to this question, which is um, you know, is uh is she who bore him um being used to restrict mother specifically to biological mother, right? Um uh right. And and I that's a good that's a totally fair question. I don't even know. I mean, I would agree with you that if it does have a specific meaning, then that's probably the best candidate. Um, but I have no idea also if um the word Yoletis can be used to mean someone who like raises you, you know. Um, but it's a very good question or a good possibility. Yeah, Isaiah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, who's the intended audience for this PUSUK?
SPEAKER_07Oh, okay, good. So who is the intended uh the intended audience for this PUSUC? Okay, and what are the candidates to you?
SPEAKER_00The either the son or the mother slash father.
SPEAKER_07Okay, I think there's a third possibility. Okay, so is it is it the son or the parents, or and you might say that this is gonna fit into one of the two possibilities. Um but I think there's a third possibility that's related. Anyone have a third possibility?
SPEAKER_00Uh an outside observer.
SPEAKER_07Okay, it could be an outside observer, uh, but uh uh but I think that's actually closer to what I was thinking, which is um potential parents, okay, people who do not yet have a kid. Um, so they're not actually parents yet, but it's talking about you know, if they do decide to have a kid, whereas you can't do it the other way of if you decide to be born to someone because those decisions don't work. Okay, out of Rufki.
SPEAKER_03So while speaking of the parents, I'm I'm also curious about do we have any knowledge on what the character traits of the parents are? Like let's say for parents or for potential parents, but the only, I guess, like um thing ascribed besides for the reactions is seal.
SPEAKER_07Okay, good. So um uh what can we assume about the parents? Okay, are you know uh is this talking about any parents? I'm gonna just go ahead and just state the unstated thing here. Uh I guess like regardless of their complicity in in producing a foolish son. Sorry, a foolish son. Or is this talking about parents who are at fault in some way for um for you know for raising a foolish son? Okay. Uh and there might be other possibilities in between there, but I think those are the two like ends of the spectrum.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Isaiah? Maybe this is kind of like a translation question almost, but like Ben Kasil, I feel like that could be describing the Kasil. Kasil could be describing the Ben, or it could be saying he's the son of a Kasil. Um is there any possibility of saying like that that's saying like if your parent is a KSIL, then okay.
SPEAKER_07So I was thinking about this also. So sometimes there is a um an ambiguity, like in that puzzle I just referenced, Ben Chakham. No, no, that's not the right one. Hold on. Uh where is Ben Chacham Yisamach Av. Yeah, yeah, like um you could translate Ben, so I translate Ben Cham Yisamachav, and I think most people do as a wise son makes his father rejoice, but one could translate as the son of a wise person makes his father rejoice. Okay, um, so the adjective could be going on the son or the father here. Here, I don't think it works, and I'll tell you why. I think so. If you translated this as the son of a fool, then you would have to say anger to the father who is the son of a fool. And bitterness, maybe you could say it. I don't know. To me, it's just the reason why I reject it is it's too convoluted. Um, so and I did not see anyone who translated it that way. Okay, so that's my my go-to. Like in, you know, even if we think that grammatically it works out, if no one says it that way, then that makes me suspicious if that reading is good. But it's a it's a good valid question to ask, though. Uh Lori.
SPEAKER_13Um what is the definition of a foolish son?
SPEAKER_07Ah, okay, good. Definition question. Uh, that's a big one. So, what is the definition of uh of Ben Xiel? Sorry, Ben Xiel, uh foolish son in this context. Okay, good. And obviously the way that we uh answer that question is gonna have a huge impact on how we read the rest of it.
SPEAKER_10Stephanie if you're there and able to unmute. Sorry about that.
SPEAKER_02Sorry. Um, why is this a negative consequence for the XIL? And to add on to that, how old is the XEAL? Because if they're like a kid. Oh, that's a good question, also. Yeah, yeah, okay. Affect them.
SPEAKER_07Okay, good. So how old is the is the Ben Xiel uh uh here, or does it even matter? Um now you said why is this a consequence to the Ben Xiel? Uh I think that's gonna kind of depend on on um who we say that this is for, right? So the question, uh so I I guess it's um I'm gonna just tack that on to question six, even though it could be its own question, which is um, and then like, no, I'll actually make it its own question. And like depending on who this is for, um what you know, who cares about this consequence? Okay, so for example, um if this is for the son, so why should he care if his if he angers his father or mother? Like, is that really gonna affect him? Is that really gonna motivate him? Um uh or if this is for the father, you know, is it just saying being angry is not pleasant, or is there some further consequence to the anger? So either way, we say it, who's gonna, you know, why does the consequence matter? Yeah, I guess like not who cares about this consequence, but like like, you know, what what what's the big what's so bad about this consequence or these consequences? Uh these consequences. Yes, Alex.
SPEAKER_04This probably could get tagged on to another question, but I'm curious what the like decision-making scenario is, and obviously it depends on who the like audience is.
SPEAKER_07Right. What is the sorry, what is the decision-making scenario here? So just to say a um uh methodology point about how we approach uh the book of Michelet is that we we treat this as a book that ultimately has to boil down to decision making. So you you it's very easy to just take this and be, you know, say like stuff like be a good parent or like don't raise a bad kid, but unless you could like translate it into a specific, you know, practical directive, then we don't really gain uh the full lesson. So we always try to understand what decision-making scenario or scenarios uh is this addressing here. And um, and and as Alex said, like, you know, this will depend on who it's for. Yeah, Rivke.
SPEAKER_03I'm not sure if this would be under something else or not, or if it even really matters to the puzzle, but I'm curious, like, I'm sure that the Bang Seal this also affects other people in his life, right?
SPEAKER_07So I'm curious, like, you know, okay, so why limit it to the parents?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_07Okay, right. So uh what's so bad about these consequences? And then why limit these consequences to the parents? Now I'm gonna um I'm not saying that that's a bad question, but that sometimes can be a bad question because sometimes the it's like um like sometimes the answer is that is the subject of the puzzle, right? So, for example, and I'm just hearing little kids riding bikes outside. If you said, you know, kids who ride but ride bikes should wear helmets. If someone asks you, well, why don't you talk about safety for motorcycles? Well, because I was talking about bikes, you know. So, like, so it's a good question when used to understand what the idea is, but if it's why this as opposed to talking about something else, then I usually find that that's not a fruitful question. Yeah. Um uh okay, uh other questions here. I think there's one definition question that we have to ask, though, or two definition questions that we haven't asked yet.
SPEAKER_11Like the two reactions of a parent?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, right. So what uh what does cause mean in this context? And then what does memor mean in this context? And actually, I'm gonna be more specific here. Okay, what does cause mean in this context? What what specific emotional reaction are we talking about? And then I'm gonna say what does memory mean in this context uh if it's translated, uh sorry, if it's translated as bitterness. Okay, um, and then separately, actually, yeah, you know what? Let's just do it like this, okay. What is it? Yeah, what does memory mean mean in this context? Uh, regardless of how we translate it. Um, I want to point something out before calling on Naomi. If you just notice here, um, if you say that memor means bitterness, okay, so then you have two emotional reactions. You have uh anger to the father or whatever the whichever um uh anger, annoyance, or vexation, and then bitterness to the to uh the um to the mother. But if memur means rebellion, okay, so then does that lead anyone of anyone to translate cost differently? Because when I when I think if in other words, if it's saying yeah, if it's saying rebellion, then I would translate cost slightly differently than anger. You don't have to, but I'm just wondering if anyone has an alternate translation. So I might translate as provocation. In other words, rebellion has to do with like challenging authority in some way, and I would I would assume that the anger to the father is more of a of that nature, you know? So like you know, we'll we'll have to keep a fluid mind here. Okay, Naomi.
SPEAKER_14Okay, so there are two different reactions though. Like the father's gonna get angry, and what about the mother?
SPEAKER_10Should I say that one more time?
SPEAKER_14What what is the what happens with the mother? Did what does she feel? And why is it mentioned? I'm sorry, I'm yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07So it says uh that it is bitterness to her.
SPEAKER_14So why is it different?
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_07So why is it different? So that's our first question here, which is or I guess it was the first question.
SPEAKER_14Okay, I missed it. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_07That's fine, that's fine. Why is cost the reaction that the foolish son provokes in his father, but bitterness the reaction he provokes in his mother? So that was our question.
SPEAKER_14And and uh I know someone mentioned before about just um life in general, like how he affects his all his own life, right?
SPEAKER_07Right. So my answer to that question is that that is a good question, but I don't think that is a fruitful question to ask on a possible that's about a specific topic because there are many other talk about his effect on his friends and his effect on other people. And this one is talking about his parents. So it's it's not a bad question, it's just that the answer is that's what this is. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I think we got the main. Oh, sorry, there is one more. Okay, and I'm sorry that this is only going to be a question that is uh that that can be anticipated by people who have been with us for the last uh five weeks. Any does this sound familiar to anyone? Does anyone be like, haven't we learned this before? Yeah, Stephanie.
SPEAKER_02Um, is it related to like a previous passac that we learned?
SPEAKER_07Yep. Um, so we did. Uh so I I I prepped these up here. So if you look at 21, 22, 23, 24. So in 21, we had Yolid Xil Letugolo, Velo Yismach Avinava, one who begets a Xil has done so to his sorrow. Now that's very interesting. It's to his sorrow. So this is only talking about the father, and the father of a degraded one will not rejoice. So the overall topic seems similar, which is the effects of a fool on his father. Okay, then we had three Psukim that do not seem to have anything to do with this. A glad heart is as beneficial as a cure, but a broken spirit will desiccate the bone. An evildoer will take a bribe from the lap of a giver to pervert the paths of justice, and then wisdom lies before an understanding person, but a fool's eyes are at the ends of the earth. Okay, so I'm gonna put this question here just because it will you know we we we are should be responsible and ask it, which is is there any connection between this pasuk and Mishlay 1721, which also deals with a father of a foolish son? Okay, and then if so, what's up with the intervening psukim? Uh okay, which uh which seemed to be about different topics. Uh okay, by Naomi. Um, yeah, okay, good. So that is another question. Yes, uh Lori.
SPEAKER_13Um I was also looking at it a little bit differently, um, because I didn't um think of the words like rebellion when I was first looking at it. And um I wonder if we can say maybe the mother, maybe I'm bringing it more into modern times, I don't know. Um, maybe the mother is bitter towards the father for getting angry at the son.
SPEAKER_07Okay, good question. Okay, so another question here. Uh yeah, we forgot to say this is um hold on. Yeah, why is cost the reaction? Okay, yeah. So the question is are we certain that the caos and actually no, let me not say what we're saying. Who are the father, I guess who are the caos and bitterness directed at, okay, or caused by? All right. So we you know, we we we assumed that both were provoked by the son, okay, or both were caused by the son, um, but perhaps the bitterness uh of the mother is in reaction to the father's the father's anger, okay, uh, or you know, or some other combo. Okay, in other words, um in other words, um what is the cause and effect here between the three parties and the two emotions? Okay, that's a good question. Yeah, Rifki.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, just like on your last question about like the Psocchim in the middle, um, can you explain a little more about that? Because I was also thinking, like it reminded me of that PUSAC, but I feel like I usually like if I'm far shim connected, I thought that it was like when they're close to each, like, you know, one after another. Right. So is it possible that like even though there are psychim in between, like I know sometimes you've mentioned like maybe there's a theme of the parak, like can you just explain that a little bit?
SPEAKER_07My my question at the very end about the yeah, right. So um this is still something I'm trying to figure out. Uh, and there are different theories as to uh yeah, I'll just I'll just I'll give my my my general uh just quick current overview of of like how to analyze things like this. Okay, so the quite the the big question is do you take each PUSOK as its own idea, not related to the other ones? Okay, and there's basically actually I'm gonna write this out. Okay, hold on a second. This is methodology um question. So um, so um uh do we learn each PUSOK on its own, or do we learn it in conjunction with the uh the those that precede it or follow it? Okay, so I've I've found there there are three approaches. Okay, answer number one is each one is its own idea, okay, and there's no order at all. All right. And if you think about it, that is the that is the um uh nature of a proverb. A proverb is designed to be a standalone thing. And if you have a book of proverbs, again, just any other case, you pull a book of proverbs, you know, from you know off of the shelf, you're not expecting to find an order. That's like asking, like, what's the order, not not to compare it to fortune cookies, but like, what's the order of the fortunes and fortune cookies? Like, that's not a question. Each one is on its own. Okay. Second answer, sorry, I'm gonna go to the third answer. Third answer is that there is a deliberate and intrinsic relationship or flow from each one to the next. Okay. And then the middle one is that there is an associative order, okay? Uh, which is that, like, for example, you know, I'll give an example of this one, is that um, you know, Rabini Yona will sometimes say that, like, you know, I'm just making this up. Uh Pasuk, uh, let's see, I'll just make one up here. Uh he didn't say this here, but uh Pasuk, um, hold on just one second here. Oh, I'm just gonna make this up. Okay, like, you know, one Pasuk talks about you know greed, and the next one talks about theft, okay, because sometimes greed can lead to theft, right? So it's not like you have to learn them together, and it's not even like you need one idea to understand the other. It's just that, you know, whoever edited the book, you know, whether it's shalomo or whether it's someone else, had all these proverbs, and why not try to get some sort of uh additional like connection between them or like some mnemonic device, you know? So those are the um that's the overall thing. So now the question is um is in order for them to be related, do they have to be next to each other? Okay, so the answer that I found is not necessarily. Um, sometimes you have what I'll call an outline phenomenon. Okay, so for example, you'll have, you know, let's say put uh you know out uh level A in the outline, you'll have, you know, let's say like um uh you know raising uh let's say let's put it this way, uh disciplining kids, okay. And then you have, let's say, for example, rebuke, corporal punishment. And then let's say you may have like uh people learning from their own suffering, okay. And that sounds like it's left the topping and gone somewhere else, but then he might go back to teaching kids, you know, and then have subcategories within this one. So like it'll look like there is uh a big gap between A and B, but really it's just a uh a drop-down outline, and then you'll you'll go inside, you know. So that could be what's going on here. I'll put these in the chat in case anyone wants to make recourse to them. Um okay, so I think we got all of our questions. So the next step of what we do is I copy and paste all the questions into the chat and I complain about how Zoom doesn't let me do it all at once, and I change all the numbers. Oh, yeah, see, uh there's not enough room. So I that's part of the part of the part of the the thing. And then what we do is we take what we call the thinking minute, okay, which is we think oops, sorry, I didn't change all the numbers that time.
SPEAKER_09Uh I have to do this because of the neuroses. Um six, this is supposed to be seven. This is supposed to be eight, this is supposed to be nine, this is supposed to be ten, this is supposed to be eleven, this is supposed to be twelve.
SPEAKER_07Okay. All right. So what we do now is we take our thinking minute. Um, and what you're trying to do is you're trying ideally to come up with an explanation of the PUSOK that answers as many major questions as possible, but can also be stated as like a main idea or like that you can you know explain each part of the uh of the PUSOK. Okay. And if you have an idea, raise your hand and I go in the order of uh whoever raises their hand. Um and um yeah, okay, so let's take our thinking minute and uh we do we do an exact minute. Okay.
SPEAKER_10Go ahead and does anyone have an approach? No hands are up yet. If no one has a full approach, I'll take half a approaches. Yes, Rifty.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I can get us rolling. It's really it's not as full as I would like. Sure. But and I'm I'm really curious to see what you guys think of this because at first my inclination was like saying like the person that bore a child doesn't feel as I guess close as a relationship as like, right? Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_07That's why like when I first translated, I was like a birther. Like that's just not like you know, it's just it's a very clinical term, you know? Yeah, exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_03But then when I was actually thinking about it, I thought that it does in a way describe more of a there's just some biological deep connection here. Yeah, and so I actually want to say kind of the opposite. Okay, good, good. Yeah, yeah. So that's like where I started off with. Okay, good.
SPEAKER_07So let me just take this in. So perhaps you let us uh does not connote um like a um a like you know uh the uh she merely bore him, right? Um, but it's describing like this, you know, um very special like you know, connection uh between you know the the offspring and the mother, uh and the mother and is closer, you know, is is emphasizing uh closeness in a way that mother does not. Okay, that's a good first, that's a solid first step. By the way, can I just say a little bit of methodology here? Um, I I've said this many times, but I just want to repeat it is that whenever you have a pushook that looks obvious, the two approaches to coming up with an idea are either lean into the obviousness and just try to define it. And then sometimes you'll see past it and you'll see something really profound, or find a hook, you know. So what you're doing is you're finding a hook here, which is oh, that's a weird way to describe a mother. Where does that lead? And then you're like looking at that. Okay, so that's good, good methodology. Yeah, go on.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. So, first of all, exactly what I'm saying so far. And so I wanted to concentrate on that intrinsic relationship. And like, I don't think that it's necessarily better or worse. I think it's just describing the relationship between uh a mother who birded the child versus a father, right? Right.
SPEAKER_07So I was thinking Oh, sorry, yeah, but let me add that also, right? Uh, furthermore, um, the father doesn't have that relationship. Uh, whereas if you describe them as father and mother, it would be emphasizing, you know, the the the equality, right? But this is like something that the mother has, but the father doesn't have a good exact and again, it's not bad.
SPEAKER_03It's just no, it's not bad.
SPEAKER_07It's just this is what it's emphasizing.
SPEAKER_03Exactly.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, and so I think I'm just gonna switch to like the father side to draw that out more. And so I think that that's why like the father, like I'm gonna go specifically with like burden, although I think that it could honestly apply to all of the definitions of commas. Yeah. Um, that for the father, like, yeah, okay, like if you have a bank seal and I don't necessarily have an approach on like how much the parents are involved yet, but just for the sake of finishing the first part, then like the father is annoying to him because like let's say like the father has a business or the father, you know, whatever it is, and he wants the son to, you know, take over or help him or you know, whatever it might be to continue that legacy. And so it's just it's annoying or it's frustrating.
SPEAKER_12Right.
SPEAKER_03Um, and that's like where the vexation comes in. Whereas with the mother, like because we're highlighting this intrinsic relationship and that, you know, whatever it is, that I think I like actually rebellion. Um, because I again I'm focusing on that biological aspect of like I think it's that feeling of like, I I birthed you, like I like my genes. And like obviously the father also does, but the mother literally like, you know, you have the genes and you go through the process of the pregnancy and the birth and the the weaning and all of those things. And so I think that when the son, the child turns out in a way that you know is accedable, right? That they're not selling in the world in the way that the mother or the parent wants, um, there's that that feeling of like rebellion. Like, how could you do this to me? Like, there's that personal interesting.
SPEAKER_07Okay. Uh so uh you know what's funny by the way? Um uh I know that over the last um uh like month, I think it's come up several times that I've said that Revin Moskowitz used to tell me, like, you know, don't focus on the psychology. I think we have to here because literally it's talking about the emotions, you know. So like we we have to explain that. Um, yeah, so now so now the question is like this. I think this is a fruitful approach. Now the question is uh uh either the soft version of the question is can we explain it the second half a little bit more? And then the hard version of the question is is this really true? Okay, so I'll take either one, meaning, can we find a good example? Like, I like the narration that you're giving me about this, like I can imagine it, right? But like it would be really nice if we had like an example of this that really rung true, you know. Yeah, Isaiah. Oh, by the way, just let me explain to to Lori our our system here. So our system is when you have an idea, you have your hand raised, but then when you want to contribute to someone else's idea, you use what we call the party sign, like the party uh do it again, Isaiah. Uh I don't know how to do it actually. I've never done it. Yeah, okay, good, like that. Yeah, yeah. So that way, that way I you know we don't have to like just wait in line here. Yeah, okay. So I'll call on Isaiah first and then I'll call Lori after. Yeah, Isaiah?
SPEAKER_00Um okay, so I basically like have my own approach that uses exactly Ripkee's base. Okay.
SPEAKER_12That's a bit good. So we'll cluster.
SPEAKER_00I just wanted to translate it as bitterness instead of rebellion, but yeah.
SPEAKER_07That's what I also intrinsically.
SPEAKER_00Is that like she and I also don't think it's exclusive to the mother, but I think it's embodied by the mother.
SPEAKER_12Okay.
SPEAKER_00That she she feels that like this like being like came from her, and she feels like um maybe that this being like represents herself in like a certain way in the world. Um and when the the the human that they she created like ends up not matching what she envisions, like how she should be and how like a person should be, then I think it's like it embitters her because like it's either like it's a reflection on herself or it's like or it's like a disappointment in that like the the thing that she like created of herself didn't didn't turn out how it was supposed to.
SPEAKER_07Right, okay. Uh there is a sort of I know you didn't use this word, but I'm gonna use it um I don't know if this is even the best word here, but there's a sort of like almost sounds like you're describing like a uh like I don't know if this is the best way to say it, identification-based existential depression, you know, of like like this is who I this is my who I produced, and this is failing as a the the the life I put into the world. Like there's a I feel like there is an existential element there. Again, I'm not a mother, so I can't say that.
SPEAKER_00No, it's kind of I just I'll say for like for the first side, just yeah I'm on the like like I agree with Ruffy saying that he's a burden, but like maybe practically like the father represents the practical things that you would want to do with the son or use the son for or something like that, and he like doesn't when he like fails or doesn't succeed or like just like practically when he does things not the way you want them to, it will be annoying and anger and it will anger you. Um so that's how how I think good.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, by the way, I I forgot to mention this, um, which I I will mention now as a legitimate way to to read these. Um so this is what we what I call the um hold on a second here. Uh where should I put this? Yeah. So there is a thing where if you have a puzzle that says uh a is to b and c is to d, sorry, is to d this the there there are two ways to read it. Okay, either you could read it as A is specifically to B, I'm sorry, to B and not to D and C is specifically to D and not to to uh I am confusing myself. Hold on. I'm just gonna plug in right, I'm just gonna plug this in here, okay. So in our case, okay, so you could say a foolish son uh is an anger to his father, but not his mother, and a uh and a depression, sorry, not depression, a bitterness to his mother, but not his father. Okay, so that that's the uh the exclusive way to take the two halves, okay? But you could also read it, which is I think what you were saying, Isaiah, is a foolish son is an anger to his father, actually, this is an intermediate way to anger and bitterness to his father and mother. Okay, so each one applies to both. And then the third way, this is what you were saying, I think, Isaiah, is a foolish son is an anger to his father, um primarily, okay, but also to his mother, and a bitterness uh primarily to his mother, okay, and secondarily to his father. Okay, so in other words, you don't have to make them completely uh exclusive. Okay. Lori, did you want to add to what Rifke or Isaiah was saying? Yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_13Yes, thank you.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_13Um, I was gonna say um what Rifke um said was a very nice way to look at the words um regarding the mother, the one who bore him. Um initially I took it as um, you know, just not uh the nicest way, you know, to say it, or it was just a different way to say than, you know, right. They called the father the father, and then the mother was the one who bore him. And for her to say, um, when Rivki said it it could mean a closer relationship because she bore him, she birthed him, and she didn't do all that, I really, I really like that. And um, so it it kind of goes back to what I was saying, um, what I said before, that um maybe that does mean that the bitterness was what the mother had towards the father because the the father was angry at at the son.
SPEAKER_07Okay, so that's interesting. So, so if we take the bitterness felt by the mother as being uh in response to how the son makes the father feel, is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_13Um the the bitterness is but the father's anger towards the son. She's bitter towards the father.
SPEAKER_07She's bitter towards the father, right. So is as being okay, uh, sorry, as being towards. Oh, so you're saying, okay, I get it. So she so okay, hold on a second. The bitterness, the bitterness felt by the mother is toward the father, but you're also retaining Ruki's idea that it's because of the closeness of her relationship to uh to the son she bore.
SPEAKER_12Okay.
SPEAKER_07All right, so that's an interesting uh emphasis here. Let's just think and see if there is a uh does that bring out a another idea or is that still just like uh another facet of this idea?
SPEAKER_11Just think about that for a second. Yeah, go ahead, I see.
SPEAKER_00I mean I don't know if this is exactly what Lori view you were saying, but maybe like kind of sounds to me like the mother's bitterness really stems from her relationship with the father, um, and what you're saying, but like like if it weren't for that, maybe she her closeness with the son would have like caused her to have a love for him despite his foolishness.
SPEAKER_07That's interesting. That is interesting. I feel like that is a that's interesting. I feel like that is a category of at least in fiction, I probably in real life also, in fiction of foolish uh of mothers of foolish children, that like the sort of coddling that comes from like like feeling that the that that you know mothering the son will make it better, but it is gonna be a source of friction if this son is making the father angry, and that'll be a cause of bitterness to the mother, you know? Yeah. That's interesting. All right, so let's think about both of these more. I I would like to understand, either understand the nature of this bitterness a little bit more. I think the closest we got is my speculation that there is some sort of like. Identification based existential feeling going on here. And what's interesting about that is that the father has his own version of that because the mother says, You came from my body, but the father says, You know, you are my legacy, you know, in a different way than typically mothers have. Yeah, Ruffy.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So I just wanted to close off. And also something Isaiah said made me think of another idea. But what you just said, I wanted to add on to that. I think that that's why it emphasizes specifically that she birthed him because it's, I mean, I know that Shomo generally speaking uses Ben, right? Like, I feel like I I mean I don't know if I've seen anything that says, like, you know, ban notes or daughters or whatever. Yeah. But I think intrinsically there is a connection between the same gender. Like, I think automatically has like that, you know, like, oh, like, you know, I want my son to be like X, Y, and Z because I'm like X, Y, and Z. And I think that with mothers and daughters, it's kind of the same way. Um, so I also wanted to add that, which is why it also has to emphasize that she birthed him because there still is that connection because she birthed him, right? Um, and that's where the feelings come from. And on Isaiah's point, I wanted to ask, you know, I guess Isaiah or you, whatever. Um, that's also what I was struggling with of is that a is that a mistake? Like I'm struggling to see is the PUSOC saying that that we shouldn't be doing this because I feel that it's it's intrinsic. I think that people, you know, do it. Um that's uh yeah, the practical aspect of that.
SPEAKER_10Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Isaiah what you want to respond? No, I I I don't think the PUSIC is saying you shouldn't be doing this. I think the PUSA is saying this is what happens. Yeah. PUSIC is saying you shouldn't be you shouldn't be doing something else. And I'm not actually sure who the you is and the what you shouldn't be doing it.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. So let me answer that. Yeah, let me give the simplest answer to that because I I think we saw this when we did uh 21, uh, which is that um that this is a warning to parents that you really, really need to prioritize not raising a son who is foolish. And by the way, I just want to say, you know what? Sorry, you want I meant to do this at the very beginning. I'm sorry about this. Sorry. I meant to give a working definition of a mishlayc fool, okay. Uh which is answering Lori's question. The reason why I didn't do it is because we just did it a couple weeks ago. Uh it was like, okay, we all know this one. But so so the um so uh uh two working definitions of a of a mishlac fool, okay, is um uh and and by the way, fool is is uh oh I guess okay uh is not someone who is dumb or with a low IQ. In fact, we've had uh uh post in this chapter that says uh it's talking about a uh uh an intelligent Michelai fool, right? So Rabinu Yonah's working definition is uh a uh a hardened uh hedonist who will go to any lengths uh for pleasure. Okay. Um and uh so um by hardened hedonist we mean like everyone obviously enjoys pleasure, but there is a certain point where you you become so involved in the pursuit of immediate pleasure that you um it becomes like your your your value system, your identity, and then you're willing to do anything and like you know uh violate any law or any moral in order to get the the pleasure. And then there's like my working definition for a second here.
SPEAKER_08Why is this not working? Speaking of working definitions, uh you know what?
SPEAKER_07I'm gonna look up how I formulate it. I mean, I have my working definition in my head, but because I've been working with Vinjonas lately, then it's more prominent. I just want to look up. I I really need to edit this uh this Mishlaic uh glossary here. Uh but I just want to see what I wrote about it. Uh Spectrum. Yeah, so how did I define Xiel in what year did I write this? 2017. Uh the Xiel is similar to the Eveal in his superficial outlook on reality and his focus on immediate gratification. Okay, but to my mind, there's one important difference. The Xiel has an arrogance, that's right, the arrogance, which the Eveel lacks. The Eveel's resistance to wisdom stems from his dim recognition that wisdom threatens his mindless pursuit of immediate gratification. In contrast, the XEL is attached to a worldview with himself at the center. His resistance to wisdom stems from his vested interest in his egocentric worldview. Yeah, so the that's just a reminder here. So my my working definition uh is um someone who arrogantly believes that reality will cater to his desires. Okay, um, and there is an overlap here, okay? But these are just two working definitions if you need them. I'm gonna post this in the chat. Okay, now why did I go here? Oh, so answering Rifki's question about like um um, or Isaiah's question about who is this for? Um, in our last post about the foolish uh kid, it was uh basically telling the parents you better be careful to prioritize raising a kid who's not a Mishlayak fool because you're gonna suffer from this. You know, uh it's not a thing like you cannot just like hope that the kid will turn out well or like defer it to to someone else. And if you see, if you see Xiel, you know, XEL-like tendencies early on, you need to come up with a plan for what to do. Otherwise, once he be hardens into a XEL as an adult, then it's gonna make your life miserable. And according to this interpretation, this is talking about an adult son. Um, yeah. So that's that's how I think that's the simplest. I don't know if that's the only one, but that's the simplest interpretation. Yeah, Ariel.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I just have a couple of questions, you know, to maybe further the idea. Sure. It it you know, it just seems um it still seems you know obvious in the sense of like we've probably learnt this before. It you know, it's uh it's almost it's I feel like it's just not adding anything to what like obviously we should we should be raising kids who are not CLM, you know, is I just don't see what it's adding. And that's my because I was thinking very similarly, and my only difficulty with the idea is okay, well, so therefore what?
SPEAKER_07Like okay, right. I think that's a valid question, right? So what what new insight do we get out of this? And you know, the funny thing is like this is if we didn't just have a post that made this point, then I'd be like, then maybe this would meet the the threshold or meet the bar. But like I feel like I also want a new insight. I I do I do think we're we're hovering around it. I think there is something like you know, um that that this uh hook has to offer. Yeah, Alex.
SPEAKER_06My idea goes in a different direction that I think does kind of feed into the like uh you know, different uh angle of like where we can get a fitness.
SPEAKER_07Before you do that, let me just ask Ariel, did you have you said you you spoke of your own idea and then you ran into this problem. Did you want to say your own idea in case that leads somewhere else? Um you don't have to.
SPEAKER_01I'm just I just didn't want to skip over you if you well, I uh I don't really well um yeah, just skip me for now. And uh you know, I think that because it was pretty much very similar. I just have to think of how it can be possibly different for me to like okay, go ahead, Alex.
SPEAKER_06So for me, my idea kind of went in a very different direction than where other people's heads were going.
SPEAKER_12Yeah.
SPEAKER_06I kind of viewed the difference in father and the woman who bore him as being indicative of a conflict between the parents who are co-parenting. Um specifically um using the definition uh burden for the father and rebellion for the mother. But for the mother, rebellion being rebelling against the father. Uh, like typically in traditional roles, women are the ones that are like, you know, raising kids and kind of uh in that role. Yeah. And the the specific language here made me think of the scenario of like a mother that steps back from parenting in order to kind of like throw it in the father's face. I think there was something with the audience.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, yeah. Say say it one fine. Last thing I heard clearly was that the women are typically the ones who are raising the kids.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, so like in a traditional role, the woman is the one who's kind of overcome with the child uh rearing aspect of like parenting, right?
SPEAKER_12Right.
SPEAKER_06And for me, I thought of the rebellion being against the father, like the kind of person who steps back from parenting who's like, you deal with it. And then obviously in that case, if one of the parents is being uh like uninvolved, it'll become a burden to the other parent. And then the ripple effect will be the child is raised poorly because both parents aren't co-parenting together in a way that like is actually effectively working towards a child's betterment. And then it becomes like the parents pitting it each other against each other as opposed to prioritizing the child.
SPEAKER_07Okay. Uh in that relation. Okay, so let me just make sure I'm reading the puzzle correctly the way that you're reading it. So this is hold on. Uh I'm just gonna type it out. So a foolish son uh is a burden to his father. And now just uh tell me again how you're reading the those two words, and a and a rebellion to the one who bore him.
SPEAKER_06Um for me, when I heard rebellion for the one who bore him, it's a rebellion towards the father. Okay. As if she is not being active in the parent.
SPEAKER_07Okay, so like a rebellion of the one uh who bore him against the father. Interesting. Okay. Um so I'm gonna set aside the question of whether we can read it that way and just to see if we can get uh uh just so we can get the idea then. Let me just think about the idea for one second here. Anyone can try me if they have anything else. Um because I get the dynamic that you're saying, I just want to process it. Yeah, it is interesting. So let me just talk out what I'm getting from your idea here, which is that uh when there is a failure uh or when a kid turns out to be a Misleik fool, so there will be somewhat of a blame game going on. And um and that will uh create anger for the father. Um sorry, not anger. That will create a see yeah, see, okay, hold on a second. I'm I'm just losing it now.
SPEAKER_06For me, it seems like the um in the scenario I'm imagining, it's the parents who are not co-parenting properly. Think of like the classic like divorced parents that won't get on the same page, and that is the product of that is a XEAL being raised. Okay, because they don't learn how to cooperate with those around them because they're not having good models.
SPEAKER_07Okay, okay, so they aren't cooperating in their child rearing, and that produces a foolish, foolish son. Yeah, hold on. Okay, so maybe maybe like this, hold on. If if the father hold on, I'm just trying to like I see here, I see the idea. I'm just not uh I'm having a hard time getting with the positive. In other words, a foolish son is a burden to the father, but you're saying it's a burden to the father in the situation where he is obviously not like on the same page as his wife with the with the parenting of the kid. So that's why that's part of why he's being viewed as a burden. I mean, he's viewed as a burden because he's I mean it's a vicious cycle. He's being he is a foolish son, and that creates the burden. Um and that creates more foolishness in the child, and so on and so forth. And a rebellion of the mother. Yeah, I just am not sold on the second half of the reading. I like the uh I like the approach, and it would answer the question that was bothering Ariel, but uh I I'm not sold on the on the reading for the second half. Sorry.
SPEAKER_06No, I hear that. Um, I don't know. For me, it it I I've feel like I can totally envision the kind of mother who takes a step back from like parenting properly because they're like, well, I don't like the the father in the scenario, and they're not pulling their weight, so I'm gonna step back and then they have to deal with it.
SPEAKER_07Okay, okay, so maybe maybe that that's another maybe that that that provides an in. Hold on just a second. So in other words, like let me try this out. Let me try it like my um my my words, okay. I'm I'm trying to say your idea in my words. It is like this is is um a a fool no parent in is going to want to take responsibility for this foolish son. Okay. Um the father will view it the son as a burden, and the mother will rebel against the father by like is the word declaiming? Disclaim, not disclaiming, declaiming like ownership, you know, ownership over raising over her her you know her raising of the son. Uh and like, you know, as a result of each one not wanting to deal with this with the son, it will create problems.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, that kind of perfectly sums up what I'm trying to say. Okay, good. Also, it's interesting because to me it it almost feels like there is almost like sealishness in the like, oh, it'll work itself out attitude both parents have.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, you know, and I gotta say, like, again, I I obviously have am not uh experienced in parenting, but as a as a uh teacher of of students, I've seen more parents uh and what they produce than a lot of other people. And like it seems to me that one of the big mistakes that they make, and I'm not blaming parents in in like a you know, obviously there's a lot of challenges in life, but like I think they miss lots of windows of opportunity. Like, like they they they fail to if they see bad habits early on, they fail to like stop those, and then they that snowballs and creates other problems, and then like, okay, well, we'll deal with this later. And then by the time you know it, your kid's a teenage jerk, you know. Um, and so you just like miss the opportunity. So I I feel like that's a very common thing. Okay. Um Ario, you have your thing yet?
SPEAKER_01And if not, I'll go into the I could I could share some some key differences that uh that I was thinking about that maybe uh wasn't expressed before. Like the one uh one of the questions that I was struggling with is you know, it's funny that the POSIC is kind of like making the statement that the Ben Cil is cos as opposed to Yes.
SPEAKER_07I also thought that that was weird.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, it as opposed to causing cost, or it's almost like that is who it's almost like that is the reality, the definition of the silver and relative to the parents.
SPEAKER_07Okay, so let me actually put this as a question because I think that's a good question. Is there a reason why it states this as though the foolish son is anger to the father instead of of causes uh anger, right? Yeah, and so you're saying that that that is what he is, right? Like um that the the the puzzle describing him as being anger expresses the idea that this is pretty much uh all this kid is to his father, yeah, and just a source of anger.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and same to the mother, whatever. Yeah, it is right. And then I was thinking about the differences between like the father and the mother, like what you know what are the two different emotions, and and I think you know, look, I just think you know, man versus woman's nature is that I think men are more, you know, they they're able to disconnect more, and they don't necessarily feel embittered, but more of I think more cost because it's almost like it's the the son is kind of like a contradiction to what the father's value system is. Yeah. But which then got me thinking into uh about whether or not uh you know may may maybe a possibility for the new inside would be you know, uh maybe parents have their own definition of what uh XIL is, but but I didn't really like that approach. No, I don't like that either.
SPEAKER_07I don't know what to say, by the way, a good uh English proof for your uh statement here is you know what we say is uh a parent will say you are a disappointment to me. They should say you cause disappointment to me, but they'll say you are a big disappointment, you know. Uh and so saying you are an anger is like that is what what you became, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Which let me you know, which led me to another line of thinking, uh was more like it's almost like you know what you just said, like you are a disappointment, as well as like the there is a uh a relationship that has changed uh from when the parents viewed the child beforehand and now. Meaning, like when the child was born, you know, I'm sure they probably viewed it as a joy and oh, it's gonna be my legacy, gonna love and whatever. But then then you know the reality hit you know the parents, like, oh my god, like this kid is nuts, you know, or what he's still, like there's a relationship change. So maybe the possibility well, obviously, the audience is obviously the parents themselves and also future parents. So maybe the new insight is uh is to kind of set the harsh exp expectation that you know um that's that that there are times that your your child may be extilled and there's really nothing you can do about it. And um you know, and you that's just something you just have to live with. You know, it's almost like there's really not much you can do other than live with that reality. And you know okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_07I mean, I think, yeah, I mean I'll I'll tell you, like you you yourself just said that clearly the the the overall implication is don't raise a fool. And then if the point of this puzzle beyond that were to say just live with it, I I don't know. I would I I would want to see that somewhere in the puzzle. And I also don't know if that's what Michelet would say.
SPEAKER_01Like well, how well the question is how well um are there any seconds that talk about how you can you know change a XI for the better?
SPEAKER_07Um because I'm not saying that they should that they should say that. I'm saying like like, for example, um you have a like one mistake that a lot of parents have who have uh kids who are Xilin is you know they'll just keep supporting their kid and the kid will just l keep living a Xil life and then just like destroying himself and causing harm and stuff like that. So that parent should cut the kid off, you know. Um, or let's say, like, you know, if the PUSIC were saying that that part of the problem here is is living vicariously through your kid, and then if you have a kid who is a CASEL, then you're not gonna be able to do that satisfactorily. So then you should change yourself. You know, I I would want like some way that it's directing you as opposed to just saying.
SPEAKER_01So let me try to justify more from within the PUSOC. Yeah, I think the question the question is whether or not the parents are justified in having these emotional emotional feelings. I I think they are. I I I think that having a sill, you know, as as you know, and you know, as a parent, yeah, it's it's disheartening. And and that from a parent's perspective, who you want to risk am to have a child like this can really, you know, it it's a it's a it is a justified emotion given that we're yeah. The question is what do you do with that emotion? Do you have to like kill yourself for it, or do you just recognize the emotion and just move on? You know, it's uh it's a choice.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, no, I agree with you in principle. I just don't, I don't know. I I don't see that in the puzzle. Um okay. And I agree with you that it's a justified emotion, also. Yeah, by the way, if you remember, I don't know if you were here that week, but when we did the uh this the the last puzzle about it, uh Yolik Xiel, Letugalo, Vloismach Avinavo, there it was saying, uh, I forgot who where they got it from, but it was saying that like sometimes what happens, you know, there is a case where you the you get a XIO because of bad parenting, but sometimes it's other factors that are beyond your control, and uh and and someone did take it that way. So like there is precedent for what you're trying to do. Um, I just don't see it here. Okay, let's go with Stephanie and then we'll go to the commentaries. Uh let me get the puzzle again. Uh, where are we? Yeah, Stephanie.
SPEAKER_02Uh so I think that it's more um showing the larger scale consequences of being a XEAL, and this is talking to somebody who's starting to exhibit XEL tendencies.
SPEAKER_12Okay.
SPEAKER_02So I think the specifics of bitterness and of anger, you won't like this. Don't really matter.
SPEAKER_12Okay.
SPEAKER_02Um, because it's more talking about a very extreme example of a close relationship, which is you and your parents. So it's saying that a XEL, you will destroy all the close relationships around you, because if your parents' relationship will be destroyed, yours with them, then that means so too all your other ones. And if that happens, that means that you might be a XEL forever. Because when you lose the people around you to hold you accountable and to challenge your ideas of reality and what you think is correct, then you will always think there's no one to challenge that, and you will always have a distorted worldview.
SPEAKER_07Okay, so I'll tell you why I'm laughing. Um, just one second, and you which will essentially doom you to being a XIL forever. Okay, so I'm laughing because I'm thinking, wow, this is a really high level uh person who's on their way to being a XEL. Like, I feel like if you're the person who's in this uh zone where you are on your way to being a XEL, I feel like this level of advice you're either not going to be interested in or you're actively gonna want to like cast it off. Like, like, what does a kid who has Casil-like tendencies want to do? He wants nothing more than to be rid of the influence of his parents. So I feel like the reality of your what you're describing is true, but I don't think that that's the audience that the public is talking to because I don't think that audience would listen to this. However, the reason why I was laughing is because there is one audience that this uh could apply to, which is, you know, we don't take Mishlay in this way um normally, uh, but you know, there are commentaries that say that this is talking that father is a metaphor for God, okay. Um again, that's we we were not taking it as a metaphor here, but um that there is a reality to that, which is that that if you if you recognize that the Torah is trying to provide a a framework that is for your benefit in terms of your development, and you actively do things that are, you know, provoking to God, so to speak, meaning that are like, you know, not in line with uh with what you're supposed to be doing, you're just distancing from yourself things that could developmentally help you, you know, and that's your detriment. Um, so like there I'd be open to your idea because there you're talking about someone who is on a higher level already, but just has conflict with with with the with Torah, you know. But as a kid, I just don't see this as being a kid who's really going the audience is just far too narrow for me to think that Michel's talking to such a person, even though I agree with everything you're saying as a reality.
SPEAKER_02I think it could apply in a way because somebody who thinks that they're right all the time, like they sometimes want the validation from everyone around them. And when they have no one left to like either brag to or talk to, they might not have like that's it's they'll notice it and they won't be happy with that.
SPEAKER_07Okay, so so I I hear that example. So for example, a uh a Xiel still wants validation, uh, but if um if uh uh he like you know ruins his relationship with his parents, uh he'll uh he'll lose that. Um yeah, uh there's a uh maybe I'll post something in the Michelin chat later on. I have something to add to that, but not not for the for this. Okay, let's go with Lori and then we'll go to uh the commentaries.
SPEAKER_13Okay, thank you. So I was just, you know, I I guess we want to know why um why do we have this proverb? What is the the teaching of it? And that's what we're trying to get to. So um I was trying to get into a little bit more of the psychology of it, and it makes me um think that the dad is angry because he sees himself in his son, okay, and he doesn't like what he sees, and he feels like he's a failure, and the mother feels bitterness, like um Rifki, I believe had said earlier, because how could you do this to me? Because I I bore you. So maybe it's just saying, you know, something as simple as, well, not it's not really simple, but parents need to look at themselves before reacting to their child and try to understand their child better, whether it's a younger child, so that they could help them grow into um, you know, uh a more productive, you know, a productive adult, or if it is an adult child to help maintain the relationship that they have with them without causing any distension between um all the family members.
SPEAKER_07Okay, good. I I have uh I like this and I have what to add to it, for an oral child to help maintain that. Yeah, okay. So uh uh I I really like this idea. So let me just add something to this, which is give me one second. Okay, so maybe maybe the way to read this here is it's saying that hold on just a second. Okay, and others, I think what what Lori's uh saying here is like this is if it just said a foolish child angers his father and causes bitterness to the mother, and you tell this to parents who have such a situation like that, they'll be like, Yeah, we know. But if it's saying, no, let me say this again a father of a foolish child will be angered. Let's think about why you're angry, you know, and a uh uh a mother, you know, you if you you bore this child and you're bitter, let's think about why you're bitter. And what if it if it's telling the parents that these emotions, because so long as these emotions are not examined, then they will only further the bad parenting. In other words, the the the father who is upset, let's take again, just take a case that I see a lot of you know, uh a father is religious and the kid is not religious enough, so the father gets mad. Well, you know, as long as the father's mad because he is identifying too strongly with the kid or has some sort of vicarious fantasy that the kid should carry on his like religiosity, you know, the father is not gonna be able to relate to the kid as the kid. Uh, he's gonna be related to the kid as an extension of himself, and that's just gonna inhibit his parenting. And if the mother is taking everything personally like a betrayal, so first of all, the likelihood that the kid is doing this to betray her is just not really like, you know, realistic. The kid is doing it because he's a pleasure seeker or for rebellion in general, or whatever the other reasons are, he's not doing it to you. But if that's how you're taking everything, it's going to be an obstacle to your parenting. So, in other words, uh, this is pointing out these emotions to the parents, despite them being obvious, so that the parents look into them and ask themselves, uh, and here's the key question you know, has my unwillingness, so I guess, yeah, has my unwillingness to look at my emo my own emotions uh contributed to the foolishness of my kid, you know, and then and then like to the extent uh that the answer is yes, then there is hope for the parent uh for the parent changing themselves so that they can be in a better position uh to help their kid. Okay, good. That's a nice idea. Okay. Ariel, does that satisfy your uh your your desire for a new insight?
SPEAKER_01Uh yes, actually. Uh but but this would this would also wouldn't this also support the uh the idea that the parent has this his own definition of uh a Xil though?
SPEAKER_07No, I think this is talking about an actual XIL who you know, a Michleik XIL who's doing uh all the short-sighted pleasure-seeking, arrogant behavior, and then causing you know grief to the parents. And it's just telling the parents like if you allow these emotions to cloud your your your way you relate to your kid or your discipline uh for your kid, it doesn't even have to be discipline, by the way. A lot of times the kid is just acting out, and the kid needs the love, and and if the parent is blinded by these angers and and uh the anger and uh the uh the bitterness, they can't they can't give them that. So I don't think it needs to be a subjective definition.
SPEAKER_01I have one question on this idea. Okay. So it seems like this idea is focused on you know the kid actually being a child, like like you know, like in his teens. But once he's an adult, my question is well what what what can the parent parent practically do? Although I had they do have an answer for that question, though.
SPEAKER_12Yeah.
SPEAKER_01In l in line with this line of reasoning. I actually like the I I like the idea. So but but but there's a limitation if you say it's just to the kid, because it could still affect the parent, and the emotions can still affect the parent. So I would I would say that the that emotion can be toxic to the parent as a whole, and how the parent can relate to themselves and to their other kids and to their surroundings because they have a kid as Excel. Exactly. So I I think that's the answer.
SPEAKER_07Okay, good. That's a good that's a good answer. Um, yeah, the parents still benefit from working on that emotion uh for for for their own sake. And then I also think like like working on this emotion can only lead to a more beneficial relationship with the foolish son, right? So like let's take let's say you your your son is like a low life who's a drunk who's like mooching off of you. So you now have two choices, you know, in addition to all the practical choices. You'd either be angry and be faced with these problems, or deal with your own anger and face with these problems. So it's gonna be better off for you in just the practical dealings. Yeah, Rufki.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um, I think similar to what you're saying, I I of course, Ariel, like I agree that like a child parent relationship is different than uh, you know, child who's really 40, right? But I think that the relationship is still, I think the dynamic is still there. Like I think like you can be literally 50 and have a 90-year-old parent, and that the parent still, at the end of the day, they still birth you, right? So they're still gonna want to, you know. So I agree with your approach. Like, I don't think the age matters in terms of the emotion. I think it matters in terms of the practicality of what you can do, but the emotion is the same.
SPEAKER_07I yeah. Also, just you know, FYI, uh foolish son who is an adult can have their own children, and it is in the benefit, uh, it's in the best interest of the of the grandparent to maintain as healthy of a relationship as possible with their own offspring so that perhaps they can have a relationship with the grand the grandkids, and that could be good as well. Okay, I I do want to end by 8:30. So let's just look at two commentaries. Okay. Uh Mitsurus Davi did not say much, uh, unlike uh usual. He just says a foolish son causes anger to his father and embitters his mother who birthed him. Uh, I don't even know what he's adding. Okay, so I don't even know about that. All right, here's Rubina Yona. Now, again, I uh I use claw to translate this, so I'm gonna translate it on my own. Uh, and so if there's any differences, then um let me know. Okay, so Ahar Shaamr Lamala, Yolid Xil Letugala. After saying above three verses ago, that one who begets a fool is it causes him sorrow, Hosif Atav Amar kihu sibas ha kas la aviv, uh he adds and says that that he is the cause of anger to his father, to uh to anger him in his like business dealings, kihatuga toli kas faketef, because depression gives rise to anger and wrath. Okay, so what he's saying is he's saying earlier, Tupsukumago, it said he causes his father to be uh depressed, and then that's gonna anger him in his father's business dealings. I don't know where he's getting at yet. Umr Leoladito, Marirus Lave Liolatto, it'll call it bitterness of the heart to the his the one who bore him. But Marirus, Yoser Minhatuga, bitterness is worse than sorrow, uminakas, and worse than anger. So we actually didn't we didn't uh ask this question. I mean, we asked the question what is the anger and what is the uh bitterness, but he's saying that bitterness is worse than anger. Okay, why kiaim targish Yoser Bemidas Habein Axio Mina'av? The mother senses the character traits, the bad character traits of her foolish son more than the father. Ah, because the son is more afraid of the father, melechas bedarch ivalto lafane of and will not act as foolishly in front of him. That's very interesting. Bekashir Parashnap Posu bin uh. Okay, so let me just summarize what he's saying here, and then we'll try to figure it out. Okay, so what he's saying is that earlier Mishlay mentioned that the foolish son is a source of sorrow to his father. Uh and now um it's saying that he will will hold one second here, will will cause anger to his father in in his business dealings. Okay, so we're gonna have to ask what what's up with that, okay. And then uh this says he'll cause so and then he'll the bitterness he causes to his mother is even worse than the anger to his sorry than the sorrow to his father. Oh yeah, then the sorrow or anger to his father, because uh the foolish son still has some fear of the father and won't behave as foolishly in front of him, uh, but will behave foolishly, uh foolishly in front of the mother. Okay, so now the question on this, okay, question one is what is he saying about the business dealings? Okay, I just don't get like where is this coming from? What's the point? And then the question two is uh what's the unifying idea here? I I like it feels like two scattered, uh two scattered parts. Like what you know, he angers his father whose business dealings, and then he doesn't he makes the mother more upset because she sees all the foolishness and the father doesn't. I feel like there's just a disunity here. So can we can we uh explain this in a way that answers these questions? If not, then we're gonna uh we'll I'll give you a time, but we're gonna read one more commentary who might be taking a similar approach and just might give us more to work with.
SPEAKER_10But yeah. Yeah, Stephanie?
SPEAKER_02Um, I think it can do with two different emotional reactions to being a seal. Like one is like external shame, like your business dealings. Everyone's gonna talk about your son who's just wasting away and not doesn't want to do business with someone who raises a son like that. So it's like very external. Yeah, and then the mother like cares about his actual self and personality, and she'll become bitter because he's not gonna be a good person. So it's two different ways that being a CEL can affect the people's emotions around them, depending on their like motivations or like feelings towards that person.
SPEAKER_07Okay, so that's interesting. Uh, I have an extension to that as well. Uh, let me just type it first. An internal um uh you know, the the mother's reaction. First of all, um it is interesting that uh there is a category of this where you sometimes see like politicians who have a foolish son, and people, their enemy, their opponents will use that to like try to disqualify them, say like, how can he be such a good uh you know, mayor, governor, president, or whatever if he has a son who's like a bum, you know, or same thing in business. So that that is a real thing. So then um I think the so then the question is like, what's the practical uh insight? So I think one of the practical insights is like you might tell yourself, you know, uh that you can handle one of these emotional consequences, um, but but you might be blind uh to the other, you know. In other words, like like um and I I think these are just samples. Like you you might see again in in weighing. Look, this is uh unfortunately a thing that like it used to just be fathers who were working all the time and had to like, you know, um, and didn't spend enough time like raising their kid, but now mothers feel the pressure as well. So like fathers and mothers have to make this decision here about like, you know, do I, you know, should I invest the time in this relationship and in raising the kid? And when they dismiss the causes in their minds, consciously and unconsciously, about like what's the worst that can happen? This is the worst that can happen. Like it could be pretty bad, you know. Um, okay, I want to do one more commentary, and he's just a little bit more explicit here. It might be similar. Immanuel Harome. Oh, sorry, I know I wanted to do this. He gives two commentaries. He gives a uh literal commentary and then a metaphorical one. And I just thought the metaphorical one was interesting. But he says, uh Amar kihabenaxil husibas kas aviv. So the foolish son is a cause of his father's anger. I thought that was interesting. That he'll cause his father's anger at himself, at his kid, and uh about others. Uh Yismuhu Basikhlus Beno, who who rejoice at the foolishness of his son. So what he's saying is it's a very interesting thing, okay? Um is a foolish son will anger you in many ways. Okay, so he'll he'll he'll cause you to be angry. Okay, in other words, like for all the reasons we said. Um sorry, sorry, I didn't say it in the right order. Okay, hold on a second. You'll be angry at yourself for raising him uh that way. Two, you'll be angry at him for what he does. Three, you'll be angry at all the people who rejoice in his failures and uh uh consequences, okay, which there will be people like that. Four is um because of his foolishness, he'll go out of his way to provoke you, okay, and then and then he'll do all these things with his mother, and then the implication here is that that you know the strife of both parents will increase strife in the household. Okay, so again, I think this is a very, very good um uh uh just spelling out the consequences here. And by the way, this is not one one question we we didn't ask is is this specific to a uh uh to offspring? The answer is no. Like, like, you know, we know that in Torah, then your students are considered to be your your offspring. And sometimes you have to make this calculus as well, that like if you have a kid who's like um a foolish kid, a misleading foolish kid in your class, you're gonna be angry at the kid. Uh, you're gonna be angry at yourself for your inability to deal with the kid, you're gonna be angry at all the other kids who about their reactions about this kid, and he'll go out of his way to provoke you. So, like, you have to take into account like the cost of having uh someone like this uh in your uh in your in your life or your house. Okay, for for fun, let's just do this last one. This is a uh metaphorical interpretation. God shakiven a kacham has a lomar ki a benak seal huha adam sha in los shlamus midos. So the foolish son, which is a uh metaphor for a person who's lacking in perfection of character, ushlemus malos and and perfection of virtues, kasla aviv, he is a vexation to his father, Vikara Hasechel Av. So your father is your intellect, okay? Not God, father is your intellect, alpha sechal, and it's saying that he will not conduct himself in accordance with the intellect, rak ya avidehu lotavosov, he'll enslave the intellect to his own desires. There's nothing worse than for uh that which is intended for a primary purpose, to be a master and guide, to be instead bound slave to an animal desires. Okay, so let's summarize this so far. So, summary here is is uh foolish son equals person with bad character traits. Okay. Sorry, traits, father equals intellect, your your intellect. Okay, if you are a person who has bad character traits, um your intellect will become a slave to your to your desires. Uh and that will be a vexation. Okay, we have to understand why. And then he says, and a bitterness to the one who bore him, he says, This will also cause destruction to your physicality, to your body, um, your body and your psyche. This is for two reasons. Whether because if you conduct yourself according to your human nature, you'll you'll cut short your own days because of your wickedness. So he says, um, mother equals your your body, okay? And um uh having bad character traits will also result in shortening your life and giving you diseases and ailments. Okay, so that's an interesting metaphorical idea here. Right, which is that, uh, and again, this is very, very classical Michle, which is that if you ask most people why is it a good idea to have good character traits, they'll say, because you should be a nice person, you know, or they'll say something like that, you know. But but Michle is giving you self-interested reasons for doing this, which is if you have bad character traits, then you are going to enslave your mind to your desires and not be able to harness your mind for doing what it is designed to do. Like, you know, I again it's very uh I I uh I I feel for these uh for for students who have accustomed themselves to laziness for so long that when they have a plan and they want to do something, they cannot bring themselves to use their mind outside of their own bad character traits. Like they just can't, you know, they they can't get started or they can't follow through, or or they're they're angry. And so their anger overtakes their strategic thinking, you know. And then furthermore, you're gonna cause yourself physical harm. If you live a life of immediate indulgence and pleasures, so you're going to give yourself diseases and you're gonna shorten your life and give your life yourself a life of pain. So that's uh that is a metaphorical interpretation here. Okay, so this is a good haul. Let's just summarize and then we'll end. Um, so our ideas were as follows. First cluster was um talking about the closeness that a mother feels uniquely because she birthed the kid. And we said either that causes her to take the kid's bad behavior as like a rebellion or to take it personally, or there's like an existential identification-based depression that's gonna be very bad. Um, andor it's gonna cause friction with her her husband, um, on account of that closeness. And our question there is what's the new insight? So we didn't fully develop that approach, although it kind of overlapped in the other ones. Then we had a second approach, which was uh Alex's, um, which is that this is describing a situation where basically there is a foolish kid, and each parent then kind of like denies responsibility. So for the father, he doesn't want to be burdened with it, and for the mother, she uh is you know basically saying, like, this is you know, you deal with this, and that's just gonna make things worse. Then we had Ariel's idea uh about how the or the the step at least about how this is the principal identity of the kid in in in in the eyes of the father. Um and uh and therefore it's a big big pain to him.
SPEAKER_10Oh, sorry, it's uh it's a pain to him. Yeah, I forgot how we developed this.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I didn't write as good a notes as I thought. Stephanie's idea, um, which I did not like in the shot, but I do like in the metaphorical one, is that that there is a narrow window where where you can show the kid that if he continues in his foolish ways, it's gonna he's gonna chase away the people who love him, and that that's gonna be bad for him, and therefore he should change his ways so that he can, you know, not do that. And and uh and I just think that that's the kid's not gonna um listen to that. And even 70's argument that like he still wants validation, I don't think he's gonna be able to have the self-control or the foresight or the you know uh to be able to like really care about that. But it does work if you're talking about God. Um and then Lori's idea, which so far is my favorite one, I think, from the night, which is that there is an emotion that the father feels about the kid that he perceives as anger at the kid, but it really is stemming from his own identification. Uh, and the mother feels this bitterness and it's really stemming for her unique fact that she birthed him. And these emotions, even though they're they're understandable, are going to be obstacles for raising a better kid or for you know reversing course or even for maintaining the relationship with them. Um uh so a parent, the reason why the the puzzle it doesn't speak more directly and tell us what to do is because it is telling you, hey, be aware of these emotions, and that might be contribute to having a foolish son. Then we had the Rubinu Yona, who uh the best we got here is that it's outlining two qualitatively different types of negative emotions that you have as a result of the uh of the foolish son, uh, the external conflicts and then the internal uh depression. And then we had the um Immanuel Haromi's Pshat straightforward interpretation where he's enumerating all the various ways that your life is going to be filled with anger with having such a son. And the implication is you know, you better raise him correctly. And then you have the metaphorical idea about uh foolish uh people who don't uh take care of their character traits will end up enslaving their intellect to their character traits, and then that'll cause them um intellectual grief and uh practical physical grief. Okay, good haul. Um so I think let me just look up the calendar really quickly. So next week is Memorial Day. I'm fine giving cheer on Memorial Day. I I don't have any uh plans unless something changes. Um, but maybe I'll take a survey and see if uh I don't know if people have plans for Memorial Day. And then we got uh how many more chaps do we have in the chapter than we counted last time? We have um one sorry, one, two, three. And that's about as many weeks as we have, maybe. So I think it works out. Uh, and then we'll break for the summer. Okay. All right, thanks for coming, everyone. Uh, have a good night, and uh until next time. Bye. Thank you so much.