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The Mishlei Podcast
The Mishlei Podcast
Mishlei 25:26 - When a Rasha Contaminates a Tzadik (Part 1)
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Mishlei 25:26 - When a Rasha Contaminates a Tzadik (Part 1)
מַעְיָן נִרְפָּשׂ וּמָקוֹר מׇשְׁחָת צַדִּיק מָט לִפְנֵי רָשָׁע:
Length: 45 minutes
Synopsis: This morning (5/20/26), in our Morning Mishlei shiur, we began learning an atypical tzadik pasuk: one that seems to focus on a Tzadik's failure, or potential failure. We came up with our own approach and then learned the interpretation of Metzudas David. Tomorrow we'll see what the other meforshim have to say!
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מקורות:
משלי כה:כו
תרגום רס"ג
מצודת ציון/דוד
אסתר ו:יג
רמב"ם - ספר המדע, הלכות תלמוד תורה ד:א
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The Torah content for this month has been sponsored by Meir Areman, l'zeicher nishmas Zelda bas Ziesel, his grandmother, whose yahrzeit is on the 21st of Sivan.
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Hey, approaching the end of the parak. Uh not that the Prakimar. Significant beta. Um all right, we're at 2526. Mayan Nirpas Mokur Moshas. Sadiq Mot Lifne Russia. Okay, spring. Okay, so nearpas we got uh the BDB definition here.
SPEAKER_06Treading spring.
SPEAKER_04Uh so I don't think springs tread and nearpas in Nefal.
SPEAKER_03Nope. A treaded? Close, close.
SPEAKER_04So I say a trampled or yeah, right? A trampled spring. Uh makor mashkas. Yep. Uh so makor does we use the word makor for source, but what's the actual meaning? Well, uh yeah, a spring. It's another word for spring, right? Makor Maimchaim uh is uh uh you know a spring of uh of living waters or flowing water. So a trample spring. I'm sure there are people like Malbem and Refersh who explain all the differences between air and Mayan and Makor. I'm sure the Malbum here will probably talk about that. So and a um how did you destroy Moshkas?
SPEAKER_06I think destroyed yeah.
SPEAKER_04Okay, yeah. I I think ruined probably is a better translation because I it's I mean you could say destroyed, but like I feel like since I don't know. Destroy, I I feel like the thing exists and now it's like smash. I don't know. Like I this and a ruin what was it? Right, Kihishki Sculbisar is that they ruined all their ways on the earth, or Hashkassa's ruin. Like I think rune is the primary translation of my and then destruction is like a particular kind of ruin, but but the concept of of Hashkassa is broader than that.
SPEAKER_03Well the spring is also I mean uh I guess I don't think you think about what spring is, but do we suppose the trampling?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. What what is what do you need we we need to get pictures?
SPEAKER_03So if you just put up in the ground, so how do you all right?
SPEAKER_04Well that'll be part of our uh yeah, a ruined um uh source. Uh I'm gonna say maybe I'll combine say like uh water source, right? I don't know if that's the best way to say it. There must be some fancy word for this. Tsadi Mut leafnai Russia. Okay, so is a so tremble is interesting. I see why you're saying that. Tremble, I think, is like uh, I mean, the the word that comes to my mind for tremble in Hebrew, what's the like more normal way to say tremble? No. Right, like Haredim, right? So that's like trembling. This is more of a physical, like um, I I would have said uh uh like teetering. Yeah, they say totter, shake, slip, falter is another one, right? So it's a tzadik. Um now I don't know exactly grammatically what constru what what uh form mutt is. Uh so I'm gonna just say for now who um who falters or or teeters um before a rush up.
SPEAKER_03How is the difference between like slips and teeth is is the difference between you're currently unbalanced versus maxing?
SPEAKER_04Correct, yeah, yeah. That's why I don't know the the um the what do you call uh I don't know how you say each one of like slipping or slipped. I I'm not sure which which one is which in in the Hebrew. We'll uh we'll see if the end of the English translators do it, and if not, I'll uh uh before tomorrow I can go to the uh grammar people. Okay, so you have here, and you know, I think we're gonna need to add to this here. So Mitsusion says nearpots is inyan remisa, so trampling baragle tiraf faisun, and then mot is milosh ntia. So incline, right? Like this note, right, to incline. Um, so we'll we'll see if that works out. Uh Sadigun says Mayan is Kamayan Shin Nistam. Okay, so that's a different one, a trampled or stopped up. So Nistam is like uh with a like a uh like Sium. The Ta'alas Maim Shinis Kalkala, uh, which brings up, I'm gonna write this here, like a stopped up spring uh that brings up um uh uh ruined waters that have been not damaged. Is there a good word for water other than ruined? Muddied. Muddied, yeah, but referred to like kilkul.
SPEAKER_06Spoiled?
SPEAKER_04Spoiled is good, yeah. Yeah, sure. Spoiled. Okay, and that also fits in with um, I guess that fits in more with nearpox. Uh kakzadik matt lifany rasha. Okay, nearpas, nistam vnitram. Okay, means stopped up. Uh so it's filled with uh with uh dirt, mud, and refes. So to answer your question, uh if you go to a spring and you like, you know, um, you know, you imagine like a pool with spring that is um, you know, um giving pure water, and then you like you know, stomp all around and run into it. So now the water becomes undrinkable because you've got the it's filled with dirt, you know. Uh, and especially if it's one that is being constantly, you know, um uh what do you call it, like walked through. Okay, um, but I'm not saying that's the only interpretation, but that that's just to answer your question immediately. Uh, and then the Ravamra Korok says uh Nirpas is uh Shinisam is Mala. Alright, same thing. Okay, fine. And then the Targum I forgot to look at Hif the Sakir Enosh Inish Mayana Mabu Machabel, Tadika de Nafel Kanam Rishi. Okay, so he says a tadik who falls, right? Um, so uh falls. Okay, let's move these and then we'll look at our English oopsies. Uh okay, our English translation say, like a muddied spring and a roop and a ruined fountain, so is a righteous one who bows before the evildoer. So that's a little uh we haven't seen anyone who says that yet, but I'll add it just in case. Um and rehearsed says a troubled fountain, troubled, um uh and a contaminated well. Oh, contaminated is good. That's what I was looking for for Niscalko, right? Um, and a in fact, that actually is probably better than ruined, contaminated water source. Um, such is a righteous man, although contaminated does have a connotation of like it might have a connotation that the waters themselves in their source are contaminated. So I'll just put contaminated. Um such is a righteous man flinching before the wicked. That's interesting. Flinches. Okay. Um altar says a muddied fountain. Okay, that's also good. Actually, you know what? That's probably the most literal translation. Actually, it depends on, yeah. I think muddy uh uh a muddied fountain, a fouled up spring. That's also good. Uh, and that mush class is good for foul. Um uh hold on here. Um, a righteous man toppling before the wicked. So you see, no one really knows what mod means, right? Like we've got a lot of leeway here for uh for what mod is, um uh besides being an avenue and far walk away. All right. Um okay, uh right. So what are the questions here? So we have we did have a definition question. Uh I guess what, if anything, is the difference? Uh sorry, is the difference between a Mayan and a Makor? Yeah, Moshe.
SPEAKER_03Um is I'm guessing all the is the spring stopping giving any water or it's only getting bitter water.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so factually speaking, what is happening to each of these water giving entities, right? Uh is it uh let's say so for example, um in the case of sorry, in in the case of Makor Mashgas, uh, is it uh is it no longer even giving any water? Or is all the water in the repository, which again there's there is going to be, I mean, in most springs, there's gonna be like a pool or something like that. Uh it's not like a faucet. Um, is there in there is all the water in the repository? I don't know if the repository is the the right word. Isn't I feel like there's a better word than that, um uh ruined. Um, or is the water coming out of the McCor um uh contaminated, right? Um I feel like those are the three possibilities, right? Either either no water, bad water uh that is received, or like in the in the receptacle, and then bad water that is coming out of the source, right? And I guess like uh yeah, let's just say what is the difference? What is the difference?
SPEAKER_03What's the difference between water in the repository and water coming out of the monitor?
SPEAKER_04Uh so I think the difference, practically speaking, would be that if you can somehow uh get the um the source of since if the source of the contamination is uh in the earth, there's nothing you could do. But if the source of the contamination is in the the pool, then you could theoretically remove it. Okay, right. Yeah. Um yeah, Isaiah. Can't hear you. I don't know if you're having your audio issue, that sometimes happens.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, what's the relationship between the tsadik and the um and either the and being a mikor or a mayan? Like right.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so let's actually broaden this question here, which is what is the relationship between the mushal and the nimshal? Okay, right. So the tzadik is um the tzadiq is definitely the Mayan slash Makor, right? Um and the Russia is definitely the cause of actually I don't know if that's definitely and let's see, hold on a second here. Let me just try this. And okay, let's hold on a second here. But what is the cause of the um refes and and uh hush, right? So what uh is it the Russia or what's the other possibility? Right, or is it the mutt, right? Uh mutt leafne rasha. Yeah. Um is that the only aspect of this question? All right, I feel like that's a good way, uh at least way to start the question. Yeah, Moshe?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, um yeah, why is exadik being mutt?
SPEAKER_04Right. Okay, so let's actually first say what does it mean for the tsadik, like the sticker on the back of the laptop says, okay, uh, hold on a second. Why does it what does it mean for the tsadiq to be mutt uh leafnai rasha? And then why is he being matt Lifne Rasha? Uh and uh does that even matter, right? So, in other words, if this is something that is stemming from a specific kind of motive, and the motive is what makes it problematic, that's one approach, or maybe it doesn't matter what the motive, maybe any situation where the Tsadiq is just matt leafnate Russia, then that's gonna we're gonna have this phenomenon. Yeah. Yeah, Moja.
SPEAKER_03And another follow-up. What should the Tsadi be doing before the okay, good, yeah, yeah, right, right.
SPEAKER_04So, um, yeah, actually, let's actually broaden this here um to two questions. What is the decision-making scenario here? And then I think we have to uh use our normal uh question, but then add to it. So, what is the practical decision-making advice here? Okay, what should the tzadiq have done or be doing? Um, and that's gonna kind of be related to what the case is here. So, for example, like let's say you can say, for example, you know, Mordechai did not bow before Haman. So that might be the good decision, and this is saying a bad decision. Or it might be that, let's say, you know, Hanani Michel Nazaria get thrown into the Kivitana Aish. So that might be a situation of Matt Lifne Russia, but they're they can't help it. Like they're gonna be thrown in no matter what. So, you know, I don't know. It'd be very interesting, by the way. If this is talking about a bad decision on the part of a tzadik, I am not used to seeing that in Mishlay. Usually you have the Tsadi making the good decision and the Rush making the bad decision. Um, so that that that's uh that's just an interesting kind of puzzle. And and it might, you know, who knows? Maybe that is something that is in 25 and on that, and that's why we haven't really seen it, because maybe the earlier Shlomo doesn't deal with it. Likewise, I have not seen, I mean, this is more understandable, but I have not seen um cases of Rashiman fools making good decisions, but I I don't think he would really talk about that because they wouldn't read it. Yeah, or they wouldn't be it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Did the Russia make this a decision here, or is he just a character?
SPEAKER_04Oh, that's another question, also, right, right. Uh yeah. Um uh, you know, what what do we make? I guess like yeah, actually I'll put this um is this a tsadiq making a good decision or a bad decision? And then like um, does the Russia's decision um influence our reading in any way? I'm making that intentionally vague. I I feel like, yeah, Mosha.
SPEAKER_06I it's similar to question three.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_06That is that SADIC being modern Russia more harmful for the SADIC?
SPEAKER_04Oh, right.
SPEAKER_06Uh listeners.
SPEAKER_04That's a good question, also, right, right. So yeah, I was actually gonna ask, I'm gonna put this into a different question, I think, which uh where it belongs, which is uh who cares, right? What is the consequence of the um uh Mayan Nirpas Umakor Mashchas? Um uh are those two or one consequences? And then for whom is this bad? The tzadik, uh others or others, yeah, or I guess students, yeah, others or both, yeah, right. Yeah, it could be uh students, uh, which would be in the others or in the uh both category. All right, good. Do you like those are the questions?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, just practical thing. Yeah, I'm a little confused about the spring and the water source. Is the water source like where the spring is coming from, or is it another word for it?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. So the way it works is in the water cycle. Um, do you have any earth science teachers here? I feel like there's always like uh these days one one YBT guy who's teaching earth science. Um, but yeah, so you have the uh the source is the groundwater uh that's you know filtered through whatever, however, the earth filters it, the giant brid of filter of Hachem. Um and it comes up from the um uh from the ground, and you know, whatever at whatever place it emerges from, that's gonna be where it's at. It's purest. But then usually what happens is, I guess, depending on how big the source is, then it's either gonna be a a like pool or it's gonna be a river. I always remember, you know, I don't know if you've had this experience of getting schooled by Ruf Pesoch in terms of something very basic about nature or science. This used to happen all the time in when we did um, I was just telling someone my favorite Suggya, my favorite year we've ever done with Rappaysak in Gomartia was Kit and Bavarkin. I like the Sogya, I like the practicality, I like the Svaras, and I don't know if he's still into this, but Rapesak was very into gardening. I don't know if he still does. So he would oftentimes, you know, correct very basic mistakes people would make about how things grow. And I I remember there was a guy who thought that like all rivers, that the source was like melting snow or like like just rainfall, you know. Yeah, well, yeah, I was funny. I was gonna say, and I don't I was gonna say he's only been to uh to like you know the Washington State where like this stuff running off of the mountains, but like and repay Saka to explain, like, no, there's a source of every river in the ground, you know, and like that's the that's the cause of the thing. Yeah, right, yeah. And like the first time you hear that, you're like, oh, I never thought about that before. You know, so did I answer your question or did I miss your question? So the water source then is that or yeah, of the two, I would think that the macor is the source, and then I don't, but I don't know what the what the parameters of the Mayan are. You know, it could it could be that Mayan is referring to the like I guess where it bubbles up on the surface of the earth, or Mayan could be a different kind of source, you know. I'm not sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. And it this doesn't necessarily have to be flowing, it could also be uh you know in a pool of some sort, you know. But yeah, I think I don't think any of these are referring to river. Yeah. Okay. Uh yeah, I think I think we got the questions here. All right, so let's uh so what what let's anyone have any approaches?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Isaac. So um particularly um I'm actually talking about it. Your audio's a little obscured. I'll talk, I'll uh I actually can't talk right now.
SPEAKER_04Because you're there? Oh, I thought you were coming in. Okay. Oh fine. I thought that was gonna be a dramatic entrance. Yeah. Okay. Anyone? I mean we have to figure out what the scenario is, right? I mean, I feel like we have to take some stance on Tadik Mali Russia.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I think I have an idea.
SPEAKER_04Oh, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00Um well maybe like when the Tadic if it's Sadik um No, his faith was a Russia who like causes him like either like encourages him to do something that he wouldn't normally do or or causes him to question like openly like reflect like people are are swayed by the other people around them. And you wouldn't think a tsotic would do this, but I guess maybe it's either someone who's known as a tsotic or someone who is usually a tsotic but like fails at a particular time. So if he acts in a morally compromised way because of this rush, so normally he's like he's like a source of truth and grounding for people around him. Uh but like, and even if he continues to act in the way of its after this, like the fact that people know that he was compromised at one point, like it doesn't he doesn't like work in the same way anymore for the people.
SPEAKER_04So you're you're really saying that the subject here, I mean this is actually a good place to ask the Roman Moswitch question, which is what is the subject of this PUSOK? Um, right? So what would you say the subject is? I mean, I think I know how you're saying it, but what how would you say it?
SPEAKER_00Uh the subject is like the fact of what happens when a tzadik gets spoiled by a bad action.
SPEAKER_04Okay. Yeah, I so what I thought you were gonna say is is how the influence of the tzadik um can go be compromised by the Russia. And you're saying even if the tzadik in his um in his uh like actual character is unfected, right? In other words, like like he might not this might not be his decision, um and he might not even be changing, but it's gonna the Russia is gonna is gonna compromise his uh his influence.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was thinking before, like even if he just like hesitates but does the right thing. Ah, okay. Which is kind of like what what what uh teetering like reminded me of.
SPEAKER_04So so now now we have uh an approach to be able to go into the mushall and nimshaw here. So we need to define what Mott means, like what the parameters of mutt are. Actually, that that's I want to add that to the question of Mott. Uh what does it mean to be mutt? What are the parameters of Mutt, right? Uh is this a uh an instance, a frequent occurrence, uh a state of being, something else? Yeah, so so I think you're correct, which is that even if he is only momentary. See, we have to find a way to conjugate the Hamata, is that a thing? Like his his his uh yeah, his his uh m muttness. And um, and I don't know if anyone is having this problem now, but like once I have dog imagery in my mind, I can't like get it out once he has mutt. Uh yeah, if he has mutt um momentarily uh or or on one occasion, uh this might ruin his influence. In fact, okay, so I have an approach based on this. Based on distinguishing between Maya, Near Paz Mokor, Mosha, uh based on based on Isaiah. Anyone want to say? I think these I'll give you a hint.
SPEAKER_05I think these are two types of Mutt. Yeah, Mosha Levin.
SPEAKER_03I don't know if this is what you're going with with what you're saying. Yeah. But I'm saying at least in terms of the I guess I'll split it into like the sides himself and then the audience's reaction.
SPEAKER_06Okay.
SPEAKER_03That the um at the and then it goes back to like a bias, probably the like the availability bias for like um when like someone else puts something bad, do you ask license because of their own fault? Anything good that happens to them because of like a lot of coincidence. The opposite for you. So anything that happens to you because of your own.
SPEAKER_04I think that is not the availability. I think that's the standard attribution error. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right. Yeah. So you attribute um any per imperfections or bad decisions or failings with other people, you attribute it to their nature or their character, and with you, you you chalk it up to external circumstances, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I think that the uh people that is the people who follow psychic who like raise them also because they hold into this high regard, then it then it I guess it could just be like the natural way to that there also I think it might also be a unconscious desire of people to also want to see people who are in high kind of mess up or slip up to the relations more humans.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So when he mentioned he does not I don't want to say I guess it doesn't really matter whether he falls or is falling, yeah, or kiddos, but they're going to assume that he himself, like the actual uh repository itself is contaminated. Okay.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so I I think I have an approach that that is broader, like that's one level um in between that that there are multiple applications of which what you said is one of them. So I'm just gonna state the um anyone else want to take a uh stab at the Mayan versus Macor.
SPEAKER_02I have an example, but yeah, it's gonna be.
SPEAKER_04All right, so I'll um actually yeah, why don't you give your example first?
SPEAKER_02Just I think I don't know if it's exactly the same idea, right? But I'm thinking of when Avram didn't want to take the money's Rothone.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Because even though God and Roshi says there, like God told me that he's gonna make me wealthy, so I'm gonna find your money. Which seems weird because that's how God seems to be able to do that. Right, right. Right. But I I mean one idea is that if his wealth is associated with a Russia, yeah, then it's gonna it's gonna destroy the whole purpose of the wealth, and yeah, it's gonna be seen as just like influenced by or affected by the Russia.
SPEAKER_04It's gonna say, Yeah, okay, good. All right, good. Yeah, I think that does so here's my answer, which is a a Mayan Nirpas by nature eventually clears up, okay, but a Makor Mashkas doesn't. All right. Um uh it's permanently ruined. All right. So I think the idea might be like this, which is that when you know it it's there are cases in which uh the tsadi will be forced to be matt, leafnai Raja, um or or perhaps even cases where he uh chooses to do so, okay. And in each case, um in each case he he needs to assess whether this is a case whether this whether this will result in Mayan Nirpas uh and uh will eventually be you know clear up and be overcome, or whether this will permanently uh um taint his uh his uh his good influence, right? So I think um Moshe's and Ezra's cases fit into the second category, right? Where where people are now, if you know if you got a guy who like takes a bribe, you know, everyone and that becomes known, everyone will forever assume that we have to be suspicious of this guy's motives, you know. Um uh which I guess is like similar to the to the to that case there. Or if um if people make the assumption that this stems from a flaw in his character, that doesn't just clear up with time necessarily. Yeah, Mosha.
SPEAKER_03Uh I like the idea of the you say or, but the public says and so I guess I understand like the public supposed to have both things apply to him.
SPEAKER_04Um you don't have to read it that way, yeah. Or or an or an and is uh is both uh you know, in you know, just like the Vov in Mishli Psychum could be but or and it's uh I I I think it's either. Yeah, I think we've even had a lot of these, right? Um recently. Uh like hold on. Uh oh, I have this already. Um with the weapon one. Um yeah, Mefits Vicher Vikit Shanun, Ish Ona Brehu Each Shakir. Um, so that was the what was the the maul and the sword and the sharpened arrow. So is a person who answers falsely against his fellow. I think we had a lot of people who said those are three different kinds of things that this can be like, you know, or with the um hold on. I'm just looking for other examples where there were multiple objects in there. Um I think we have one. Yeah, no. Maybe that was the only one we had. Yeah, but that was that was definitely one that we had. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think what you're saying makes sense especially in my fact that I think in society, most people don't really recognize the possibility of shuva.
SPEAKER_04So that's also true. Right. One of the reasons for this is that people don't uh tend to recognize the the power of Teshuva. Um, so they think that once the person makes a misstep, that's it. Yeah, that's good. Um, that's why you need to be told uh roadam Tamil Khacham. If you see a Tamil Khacham do a kate at night, then don't meet Muhahar after him uh by day because maybe he did shuva. And then the Gemara says, Maybe he did shuva? He bought I did shuva. You know, so that's that's what you have to do. Right, right. That is interesting. Yeah, Isaac.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so um I have an example of this. Sure. So oftentimes managers at the um at like big companies are um expect like put into a position where they have to defend a corporate decision to their employees because they're also responsible for like pretension people like the company and wildly. So um so I think the um so uh you there's a risk with that of you know if you're like you know, let's say it's like a Russia type decision and you're you're defending it, that's gonna sully your repu reputation and the way that they view it. Right.
SPEAKER_04Right, okay, that's true. So so people in a leadership position are often forced, uh, or think they're forced, um, I think it could be both to defend um, you know, either uh decisions or people who are are Rashim, uh, and that can have this effect. I I have another thing also is um is the flinch, okay, which is this is a high standard. Even a mere flinch can cause this, right? And and and the there are cases where people are like, you know, you I guess the more common case nowadays is people, you know, you know how like companies are in this absurd position where they have to issue public statements about things that have nothing to do with the company, like like like we stand by the fact that you know that the shooting at the mosque was uh was was bad. Yeah, okay, great. You know, like so so first of all, it's absurd that that companies feel like they have to do that. But secondly, you've seen so many times when they do that, but they're like, why do you do it so late? Why did it take you a day? Why do you take you, why do you do it immediately? You know, and like and that's this effect. Like people, people assume some sinister motive, you know. Um, and uh and then but I guess that's that's bigger than flinch, but like even uh I guess the I'm gonna say like waver, hesitate, or flinch. So the the like people, I feel like I've heard this in conversation, like people be like, like, like, you know, why did you have to think? Or why did you hesitate? Like, yeah, like uh, you know, and and like there are answers to those questions, but like that's that's the minimal shear by which this thing can take place. Yeah, no shit.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean I was thinking even more like um like MMA before the file lined up for like a bunch of people and afterwards, like you see like both the people like in really close together.
SPEAKER_04That's funny.
SPEAKER_03And there's like TV still, yeah, and like it's even more than flip.
SPEAKER_04Right, it's like taken as a sign of uh yeah, right, right. Um, okay, I think this is a good interpretation. Right? Any uh anyone else have another one?
SPEAKER_03Well, I was thinking, I mean, can you I thought um like uh that like he's gonna be judged a lot more like the harshly.
SPEAKER_04That's another that's another relevant point. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I guess I guess I'm wondering about the shoulders.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you know, we didn't ask that question, which is why Davka um or I guess let's put this, yeah, actually not why, but um what? Uh what Sadik. No, um to what extent is this specific to a Sadiq and Russia? And to what extent is that just the paradigmatic case, uh, but it applies to others. By the way, this is a good case. I always say that when you have a mishlayic um archetype term, you have to ask yourself, is this being is this using the technical definition, or is it just a uh like a more generic term for like a good mishlayc actor? You know, so I think here, definitely for a tzadik, this is gonna have a big effect. But a chakam, you know, this can happen to a chakam as well. Or like, or or like Isaac pointed out, like anyone who's in a leadership position, or anyone who has the reputation of a tzadik. Like it might not even have to be an actual tzadik. So I think that's uh that's good to keep in mind. Okay, let's do uh let's start doing the Mafarjim here. Um let's start with Mitsudis David. Uh Mitsudis David, Mayan Nirpas, Kumo Mayan Hanrach, Baregal, Shine Neakar Hamayam Velo Yishtu Humeata, just as a trampled well spring and a trample uh that was trampled underfoot uh is uh is uh cloudy, the waters are cloudied, and a person cannot drink from them. I don't know if me'd means from now on or just now. Umakur mashgas. Wow, you don't usually see three debra maskels in Matus, does it? Look at that. Umakur Mashgas. I don't know if he actually bolted the Debra Maskels. I doubt it. Like, when did bolding start to be a thing? Might be no, no, definitely not. Yeah. Um uh but he was like way, he was uh post-way, I I gotta look this up. He was definitely post printing press, right? I mean, not that that changes it. Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah. Uh oh, I also thought it was 1800s, 1687 to 1769. Interesting. Okay, anyway. Um a couple of miles. So two different mosques, but just repeating it. Okay, tsadig, bakin kasher yimut had tzadik linpole if near Russia. When the tsadik falters to fall, so this is like teetering, right? Um, to fall, uh, before Russia, he's that is gonna be a cause of people not seeking Torah from his mouth. Umram by saying, Im laxmo loho yel, myolizulas. If he doesn't, if it doesn't help him, how's it gonna help someone else? Woof. Okay, so what what's the um so it's interesting also yevakshu Torah? Like, I would think, maybe because I've been teaching Ev all year, that like I think this definitely has an effect on people. Uh I wouldn't call it a khil hashem, but it does weaken people's conviction in the efficacy of the system if they see that even a tsadik is subject to falling before a Russia, so then what's the point in Torah and Mitsos? You know, but this is seems to be more specific that they will not learn from him. Yeah. Yeah, right, right. Yeah, we need to we need to specify this. Okay, I'm gonna start uh just typing this out here. So Mitsudas uh Mitsudas David uh is that if people see uh a tsadi start to falter in order to fall, you know that is the lesson that's used by um Haman, right? If you've started to fall, right? What's the fall? Yeah, I just want to get the exact word how you um six at the end of six, right? Uh yeah. If you're beginning to fall, if it's before Morga Yahudi that you're beginning to fall, low such alo, you won't be able to defeat him. Yeah, so that right, right, kinafulti polafanav, you will certainly fall. Right. So that's like I'm getting that the that's the the vibe here, but for the tzadic, right? So the if uh falters uh and is going to fall, uh, or I guess, or looks that way, um, people will stop seeking Torah from him, from his mouth, saying, if this didn't benefit him, uh how can it benefit others? So then our questions are one, um what does it mean by teetering to Paul? And what are the parameters? Parameters. And then two is um is why specifically seeking Torah um as opposed to all influence. Uh what are you gonna say?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I have two possible ways to interpret. But one is in terms of the fact that people often in a little small way view Torah as a method of making it successful. Okay, good. And dating the tzadik being like falling before the Russian terms of like worldly success. Yeah, they're gonna say, Oh, it must be that with Torah, it's working for him, so I shouldn't talk about it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I guess hold on a second. I I think what we have to do is state where where is he getting the fact that this is about Torah from seeking Torah? I think it's that that I think that part's pretty uh obvious. Yeah. Yes, Torah is water, right? Okay, right. So so Torah equals water, and then um, and then the answer number one is people um either either learn for a lolishma uh uh tied to worldly success, uh worldly success, or that's their you know that's their value system, and these are not really or uh system, or they they believe that someone who succeeds in Torah uh must succeed in the world. I mean it was really the opposite in some ways, uh yeah. Uh um, so so this could ruin um the this could undermine, you know, the the the so the tzadix um faltering could undermine their low lishma, right? That's what you're saying, yeah. Yeah, and then second answer?
SPEAKER_02Well, the second one is maybe more on a on a lishma level. Yeah, that people recognize the value of Torah is supposed to lead to perfection of personality, and when they see the ts like falling in terms of it's mean to have Torah clips of something doing for the Rashtra, yeah, they're gonna lose faith in the system and in the fact that Torah will actually help people cover better.
SPEAKER_04Okay, good. So Torah is supposed to perfect you and help you to avoid um failure, failures of this sort. So so when so if they see uh if they see the tzadik and um and conclude that that uh his being Matlifne a rasha stemmed from a an imperfection, uh they might dismiss um his Torah, right? And it's it's not necessarily I I I meant to say this earlier, it's not necessarily they're gonna stop learning Torah, period. That's not what he says, they'll stop learning Torah from him because they'll assume okay, he's uh this guy, Torah is not working on this guy. You know, and by the way, there is a reality to this in terms of the halacha. What's the halakha about who you should learn from? What's the the unanimous uh famous quote? Yeah, what's what's the what's the comparison? Uh so he says in Ramad Tamatura 4, 1 or 2? Um 4 2. Oh, actually, we'll do we'll do both. So we only teach Torah to someone who's a uh proper Talmud who is beautiful in his actions or a Tan. Okay, then he says what uh you know uh what we do with someone who's not like that. So to a Rav who's not following on the good Derach, Aphopisha Khacham Gadalhu, even though he's great, and everyone needs him in Mislam Dimeno. We don't learn from him. It says that the lips of a koin guard knowledge and Torah they seek from his mouth, for he is a malachar Shem Tsubakos. Amru Khamim Kham say in domeha rav the malachar shem tsubakos. If the Rav is comparable to a malacharm Tsubakos, Torah Yevakrampiu, then they should seek Torah from his mouth, I'll yevakh you, then they should not. Now, I realize this is addressing the opposite audience because this is saying that they want to learn Torah from him even though his mitos are bad. Uh, and you're and we're saying that if he fails in a way that exhibits bad mitos, then they will not want to seek Torah from him. But but yeah, I think it's it could play out both ways, yeah.
SPEAKER_02One, just in terms of the child of the public, he's reading it that it'll seem contaminated or slapped up, like in terms of the perception that the spring will seem contaminated, but not that it actually is.
SPEAKER_04So I'm not sure uh he doesn't really comment on on whether the tzadik is at fault, right? So you could I think you could read it both ways, is that if he happens to fall, then people will make this assumption that it's corrupt. Um, and it'll be like it'll be like a a mash got in my uh near pass. Or if uh he actually falters because of a decision, then people will draw this inference. Right. Yeah. Okay. I think it works out both ways, right? I don't see in the yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I think a really good example of that. Yeah, I hate to pick up Sorry there, but yeah, like they're learning all day, and then people see them like refuse to help in the army and it's side, and they discount all their tore if it doesn't.
SPEAKER_04Right. That's uh that is a good example, yeah. Yeah, most alone.
SPEAKER_03Um there's a I don't like there, but also want to see the Saudi have a lot of role in success. Is that I guess the question about the stuff, but is that like naturally going to come to the Sadik, or like the Sadiq has to actively pursue that?
SPEAKER_04So yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's like if they're saying that, oh, it's more brings you success. Yeah, the Sadik is just someone that works really part of it, like almost kind of sounds like he's like just trying to trick the people.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so it is funny. Okay, you've got sources on both sides, all right. Uh, so you have, for example, Michle that does promise many times that the more misleically you live, then the more you will enjoy success, right? So that that is a true phenomenon in general. However, there's also the phenomenon that the more of a tsadiq you become, the less you're gonna care about worldly success um in many ways. Obviously, like there are people who will care about it so that they can influence others, but the people who are not in a position to influence others, like there are many cases of tsadi who are poor, you know, uh, because they didn't care about that stuff, right? And so is this telling those people that they should um that they should uh like seek that success because otherwise they're not gonna be as influential, you know. And then you have the machlot, you know, you have the statement that um in the vukala ella al um changkibo ashir, maybe. I think that's why the benzoma thing says that, right? And so you have Rambaum who says Ashir is like Midos, but then you have others who say no, Ashir means you actually have to be wealthy because otherwise people will not listen to you. Okay. Um, and then you have you know the the the machlokis about uh whether and under what parameters you're allowed to accept money for Torah, which the Ram is very machmir on not doing that. So I I gave a uh four or five part series on that two years ago, maybe, and another one earlier than that. But the Rashba, we went to the Rashbats and one of them, and the Rush Bots says that one of the reasons why Talmud Khachamim should charge for Torah is that what happens, and he saw this happen a lot, is that you know, you have Khachamim who are like beggars, basically, which is another problem with the Kharatim, like you know, that they're basically like not beggars, sorry. They're they're they're They're they're like Anian, you know, and people look down on them, and therefore they look down on their Torah. So he's saying it's proper, you know, for your station to have a certain standard of living, you know. And I've even heard that people that heard people talking about that in um in like salary stuff for for teachers in like Jewish day schools now, about like like it is a bizui, and I this is what the Rajphat says, it's a bizui to Torah to to to have people associated with with Torah like like barely being able to scrape together money, you know. Like so I I don't have one answer to your question. I think there's like competing uh factors here. Yeah. Okay, both of these are good approaches. Uh let's stop here for today. And I found out I'm 95% sure that we don't have to change the time tomorrow. So I uh I'll I'll announce it in the in the chat, but I think we can keep the normal time because they canceled another day of my classes. Yeah, so we'll see. All right. All right, have a good day. Thank you.