Mishlei 25:27 - Mussar for Winnie-the-Pooh (Part 1)

Mishlei 25:27 - Mussar for Winnie-the-Pooh (Part 1)

אָכֹל דְּבַשׁ הַרְבּוֹת לֹא טוֹב, וְחֵקֶר כְּבֹדָם כָּבוֹד:

Length: 46 minutes
Synopsis: This morning (5/27/26), in our Morning Mishlei shiur, we began learning a cryptic pasuk about eating too much honey - the second instance of this theme in our perek. We came up with four quite different original approaches. Tomorrow (בג"ה) we'll turn to the meforshim.
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מקורות:
משלי כה:כז
תרגום רס"ג
תרגום כתובים
רמב"ם - משנה תורה: ספר המדע, הלכות דעות ב:ג; ו:ב
סוטה דף ה עמוד א
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The Torah content for this month has been sponsored by Meir Areman, l'zeicher nishmas Zelda bas Ziesel, his grandmother, whose yahrzeit is on the 21st of Sivan.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Okay, we are up to Michhle 2527. Um uh and I'll just note now, uh I won't know now, I'll note it later. Okay. A hol devash harbos lotov the keker kivodam kavod. A little bit of a weird uh framing here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 0:17

Eating too much honey is not good.

SPEAKER_04 0:19

Yeah, so that's a good question. Is it too much or is it just a lot? I'm not I'm honestly not sure. Yeah, right. Eating, let's say uh uh is there a way we can preserve an ambiguity in not knowing? But it sounds like an abundance, right? Sounds like more a lot, large amount, right? Yeah, eating a lot of honey. Let's let's try that and we'll see what happens. Uh is not good. V cheker kavodam kovod.

SPEAKER_07 0:44

And investigating their glory is glory.

SPEAKER_04 0:47

Yeah, right. And investigating their their uh glory is glory or honor is honor, yeah. All right, weird. All right, so Sadiun says, a whole is Kamosha Akhila Maruba Minhadvash in Batova, Kahla Takhle's uh Kavodam Kovot. Ah, all right, that that at least that's actually a nice translation. Okay, so just as the eating of um uh just as excessive eating of honey, I guess, right? Just as excessive eating of honey uh uh contains no good, so too late's kvhodum cabod. How do you translate that?

SPEAKER_06 1:33

The purpose of their kabod is the kabo.

SPEAKER_04 1:35

Interesting that you go with purpose. I would go with limit. Yeah, the or an end. I mean, the end is the word that we have here, right? I mean, I think it makes much much more sense. I don't think purpose makes any sense here, right? I mean, and also I uh I I don't I don't know this for sure, but like I get the sense that Taklis is uh the way we use Tahlis is like a much more modern usage of the of Hebrew. I don't know when it started being used, uh, and I'll see if I can investigate that, but I'd say I'm gonna go with um the uh the tahlis kvodam hakavod.

SPEAKER_07 2:07

Yeah, human re-shaman heaver?

SPEAKER_04 2:09

I don't know. Can you yeah, uh I mean I I I know that there's some who who who might use it, but I just don't think that's what it means here. Meaning like there's the tahlis kvodam.

SPEAKER_07 2:21

Like tahis of gore and tahis of creation.

SPEAKER_04 2:26

Is that so who talks about?

unknown 2:27

I thought Albod us.

SPEAKER_04 2:28

That's possible. That is a late region, though. Yeah, I'm not I'm not I'm not sure here. And of course, uh also this is uh Kafak talking about this. So what I'll have to do is I'll have to look up uh whatever word he uses here and and taklis. Okay, but let's say the uh the uh letakhlis kovodan ha kovod. Uh covod is the the end of their covod. Okay, I think that'll preserve the ambiguity here, right? Because end means uh the cap and also the the purpose. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 2:56

Targum is supposed to be said like a tahlis kavodam. That says litak.

SPEAKER_04 3:02

Oh, for yeah, you're right. Litaklis Kavodam, not covod. Yeah, I'm not sure how to say that. Uh uh Lit Ahlis Kavodam.

SPEAKER_05 3:11

Sounds like it's not a top.

SPEAKER_04 3:12

The covod is for the tahlis of their covod. Yeah, okay, good, good, good. All right. Uh yeah, I think here we might have to just look at the pair of side to go, and also. Um, all right, so if we if we tackle that, we'll do that. So Targum, I think, is pretty straightforward. Lamechal dufsa sagi lo shapier. So to eat a lot of honey is not good. Af lo limivtsya milid miakrusa. Um, so I think he only just adds in the word mile, right? Even um to and mivtya means is is caker. I get my my little uh Aramaic intuition says l mivtya means to like probe, uh, which is another word for uh um for what do you call it? Uh investigate, but to probe matters of covot. So he kind of takes out one of the uh one of the words of covod here. All right, so again, I don't know what this does for us. All right, let's see what the uh English ones do. Uh art scroll, eating too much honey is not good. All right, so that's how Moshe translated it. Um, everyone translates that. Okay, fine. So uh yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 4:14

I know it could mean enough. Does it also mean too much?

SPEAKER_04 4:17

I would say it's too much simply from harabos. Sounds like it's gonna be too much. Uh-huh. Yeah, but you're right. It does it can mean uh, yeah. It's interesting that it means too much and enough.

SPEAKER_06 4:26

Right. I never heard of us enough.

SPEAKER_04 4:29

I think that's the normal Oh sorry, as enough. Oh, yeah, yeah, right, right. Yeah, it usually means a lot, right?

SPEAKER_06 4:35

No, I always heard it as saga is oh now we can't.

SPEAKER_04 4:38

Yeah, yeah, that you can use yourself, yeah. Usually it means a lot.

unknown 4:41

Sagi no.

SPEAKER_04 4:42

Yeah, Sagi Nara, or yeah, right, right. Yeah. I think that's just the normal translation, but uh yeah. Yeah, so I I'm not used to hearing it meaning enough, but uh in Targum Hebrew. Uh right, yeah. Yeah. All right, now I'm curious. Uh let's just check out the Jastro. No. Still not, technically, technically not, yeah. Yeah. Um someone should uh should uh teach us the Xi Jinping. There's the there's the Winnie the Fu joke. Um Sagi is uh multitude or greatness. Uh and Sagi is spreading numerous large great, plentiful, and then third meaning is enough or greatly, yeah. Good. All right. Um okay, and then so article says eating too much honey is not good, but searching out the cut the honor of the righteous is honorable. All right. Obviously, one of the big problems in this post is who is the subject of kovo dum, right? Uh it's not not the honey. Um uh reverse, unless you're winning the pool.

unknown 5:48

Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 5:49

Okay, you're gonna regret mentioning that. All right, it is not good to eat too much honey and to strive for honor is their honor. Interesting. To strive. That's a weird translation. Yeah, it's strange though, right? In other words, if you're that does involve some sort of striving, but I wouldn't translate it as striving. Oh yeah. Okay, that could be. Yeah, I mean, I I I think what we're both sensing here is Doraish and Mavakish all involve seeking some sort of seeking out, you know. All right, and then altar pulls an altar. To eat too much honey is not good. Hi, are you a person? Is this someone you guys know?

SPEAKER_05 6:41

Yeah, rebellion.

SPEAKER_04 6:42

Okay, hi. All right, fine. Rubbish, anyways. All right, uh, so uh altar pulls an altar here. To eat too much honey is not good, and to be sparing of speech is honor. Okay, where does he get this from? Snap judgment. The masoretic text here makes little sense.

SPEAKER_05 7:10

All right, we're gonna emendation that he added words to the uh yeah, yeah, he adds in the word davar, right?

SPEAKER_04 7:17

Um, I don't know if he's trying to do like a if you like squint, then come hard I don't know, yeah, but uh so that that's uh that's an older thing. Fox Fox is okay. I always forget if it there's an Everett Fox and there's a Marvin Fox, and they're both trans modern translators of Hebrew who are academics. I don't remember which one. I have hold on a second. I have uh proverb, sorry, our YouTube friend Peskin sent me uh Fox. Michael, yeah, Michael V Fox. Uh yeah, I know that because I I've I've made um I've made uh Back to the Future memes about the translation of Mishle, just for myself. Uh okay, uh, because Michael J. Fox, whatever. All right. All right, uh, so uh let's just uh all right, so uh one question which which I know this is a translation thing, but we'll just put it in the question here is um who is the subject of Kvodam, right? Who is Kovod? Yeah, Moda.

SPEAKER_07 8:12

Sort of tautology, Haker Kvodam, Kovod.

SPEAKER_04 8:15

Yeah, right. Um uh what does uh sorry, is uh yeah, I guess I was just saying what does Haker Kvodam Kavod mean such that it is is it is not a tautology, right? Um the one that the only example the best tautology in Michelin is evelis xilum evelus, the foolishness of fools is fool foolishness, right? So yeah, uh yeah, Moja.

SPEAKER_05 8:42

Um obviously eating uh anything in large quantities except for water is why okay, right, good.

SPEAKER_04 8:49

So why specifically honey, all right, uh uh given that anything eaten uh in large or excessive quantities is not going to be good. Uh yeah, as well.

SPEAKER_06 9:03

That indicated that it means large, not excessive.

SPEAKER_04 9:06

Possibly.

SPEAKER_06 9:07

Possibly that it's not large, some things you should have a lot.

SPEAKER_04 9:10

Okay, right. That's that is uh that is possible. Yeah, uh David?

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Following Moshe's question, uh so is eating honey in uh not too much amounts a good thing?

SPEAKER_04 9:22

Right. Okay, good. So so I'm gonna actually go ahead and and and say that that's true, right? Uh and then the question is how much, right? So the implication is that eating not too much honey, uh honey is good. So the question is, what is that good and how much? We truthfully we did deal with this earlier this year, right? I think we had another, oops, that's my Gmail.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

I think we did have another uh that's why I was raising my hand to comment. Uh okay, go ahead. Comment. I think we saw that um eating a small amount of honey is healthy.

SPEAKER_04 9:55

Yeah, correct. So we saw this in the going into someone's house, right? Uh Divash Matasa echol dayaka pentispa enu vahakeso. So if you found honey, eat what like Winnie the Pooh. No, all right. Um uh someone has to be keeping score here. All right. So uh if you found honey, eat what is uh enough. See, that's interesting. Dayaka, eat what is enough for you, right? Um, so that would be an answer to our question, presumably. It's in the same chapter. Lest you be sated. No, that's funny. Lest you be fed up, right? We said it's too much and then vomited out. So there we said just and I think we should all be on the same page factually here, is that back then they thought honey was both um uh uh tasty and healthy. Okay. Um uh I used the I'm sure I mentioned this last time, but I'll mention it again. Uh, is that my grandfather was a beekeeper and he uh had the belief like the uh like the grandfather in my big fat Greek wedding, uh that that character believed that Windex could cure anything. Like you know, you got injury, spray Windex. You know, you have like uh you need like moisturizer. My my grandfather uh held the same thing about honey. So like I think that's probably a leftover from like, I don't know if you got it from you know Chinese uh you know medicine or whatever, but like uh I think that's the premise that they had back then. I don't know why they thought that. Like, I wonder, I'm curious what they what they thought it was. So yeah, so is that uh what is the good and how much emotion you have the question?

SPEAKER_07 11:19

Um yeah, is is being co-kircabo sweet or enjoyable?

SPEAKER_04 11:23

Okay, yeah. So let's just broadly ask the question what is the relationship between the two halves? Um so I'm gonna say, like, is it a uh is it comparing or contrasting? And then like, is there a uh a sweetness um in Haker Kovod? Or is the analogy uh focusing on a different uh quality? I mean, presumably uh it's sweetness, right? Because it's honey, but yeah, uh yeah, Moshe 11.

SPEAKER_05 11:56

Uh is this a single instance of eating a lot, or is Okay, that's a good question, also each instance each instance itself is not eating a lot, but you are eating honey many times.

SPEAKER_04 12:07

Okay, right. So so is a whole divash parabos referring to um to a single session of eating, uh like in the puzzle we read before, which was very clear, right? Uh that's in 25 uh 16, uh, because you're you're vomiting, right? So like you're you know in 2516. Uh or is this talking about um you know eating honey too frequently over a longer period of time, right? And that could also be bad. I mean, we see that that's bad because of uh empty calories, right? But uh I don't know what what they thought. Yeah, Isaac.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Um what does it mean to be hocher covod? Right. I know we can find devastat number two, but it's yeah. I feel like that's really about the covodum covod. Right.

SPEAKER_04 12:59

What does it mean to be poker covod? Uh oh, sorry. Uh yeah. Yeah, what is the difference between those two questions?

SPEAKER_01 13:12

I think the question number three, the emphasis is on the the tautology. Yeah, and the second question.

SPEAKER_04 13:19

I think it's uh yeah. Uh David.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Regarding the relationship between the two halves, is there a limit to how much being Hokker and Takavun is a good amount? Depends on how you translate Sadi Gun.

SPEAKER_04 13:33

Yeah. Right. Uh is there uh is there a limit to the phenomenon to the I guess the uh I'm gonna say the phenomenon. I don't know if uh is phenomenon or activities better in the second half.

SPEAKER_06 13:47

Yeah, why is it expressed as low tove?

SPEAKER_04 13:50

Yeah, right. That's also good. Um uh why does the first half express it as low TOG, uh, which is both an understatement uh and not specific, right, compared to 2516. No, it's just more like it could just say it's bad. And also, or it could it could either say it's bad, or it could spell it out like you'll vomit, right? Like in the first part, you know. Um just not good. Not good is even like is it neutral? Right, is it yeah, I guess here here's let's say, okay, is it is it, I mean, yeah, is it okay? I'll say is it neutral? No, it's probably not, right? Um is it is it trying to like target the Hava Amina, okay? Um uh that it is good. Uh and if so, wouldn't saying bad accomplish that?

SPEAKER_00 14:57

Yeah. Uh Wit. Right, Merc question. I apologize if I missed this, but do we take up the difference between hard boat versus hard bay?

SPEAKER_04 15:06

Uh no, we didn't. Uh, and I don't know if we yeah, I don't know if uh I possess enough groom medical knowledge to take that up. I could I'll I'll list it, but uh sure.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Okay, because I was I mean I was thinking of hard boat seeming to be like more of an action, like an action of excessiveness versus hard bay just being what I would have thought is like a quantitative too much.

SPEAKER_04 15:27

Yeah, yeah, I I hear the speculation. I I I uh uh we'll we'll just keep an eye on for it, yeah, sir.

SPEAKER_06 15:32

Is there something which is low tove in the second half?

SPEAKER_04 15:34

Uh right. Uh is let's I think that goes on the relation between the halves. Yeah, is there something low tove uh in the second half? Yeah. Okay. I think we probably have you know, another question we we should ask, and you know, this is not our typical derek. Excuse me, but um but you know, is the first half intended purely as a mushal? Okay. Uh and when I say that is I'm saying like usually we take the puzzle as literally as possible unless we're forced to otherwise, but our parak is filled with mashalim, you know. So, you know, and then another question we I'm gonna ask, only I would not have naturally asked this, but because the Rubenu Yona that we saw last week connected the two, I'll just ask uh he connected this to the previous one, which does again seems completely unconnected. Mayan nyer pasumakor mashkas, t'ik motlifne Russia, a trammelled, trampled wellspring and a uh ruined uh uh fountain, so is a tsadik who bowed before the Russia. So, oh sorry, and then um the next puzzuk, the last I'm sorry, last puzzle here is Ir Pruzza in Khoma Ish Ashain Maatsar Lurucho. So let's just say is this connected to the puzz uh before or after?

SPEAKER_03 16:59

Okay, let's go.

SPEAKER_04 17:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 17:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:15

Right, right. Is that also the beginning of our character? Kovalukim has right, wait, what which one did you say? That one, okay, yeah. Yeah, I also I also was thinking uh it sounded familiar, but I forgot that it was RPR.

SPEAKER_05 17:31

I just want to ask that we can I mean because I see that even the uh like modern guys have insert their own uh like subjects. Right.

SPEAKER_04 17:42

Yeah, you have to insert a subject here. Right. Sorry, and and here's the other thing also. Actually, you know what?

SPEAKER_05 17:47

I wonder if it'd be like worth it to just go to the more quality. I trust their speculations more than mine. Not an intellectual spark itself, but right.

SPEAKER_04 17:58

Just not you're not talking about the emendation of the text. You're just talking about the uh who the covet belongs to.

SPEAKER_05 18:04

Well, I mean, our call that you know, righteousness.

SPEAKER_04 18:07

Yeah, yeah, right, right, yeah. That also I think you use the word emendation for changing the text, you know. Uh, but we do have to posit who this covet is. By the way, one interesting thing as well is if it weren't for the pluralization, I would have assumed it was God, right? But we don't pluralize it when it's Hashem, even if it's Elohim. Uh it's funny, I I asked, um, I don't know if you've ever thought about this, but uh, I only thought about this like a couple years ago, that like, even though Elohim is plural, then we we don't we say vaidaber Elohim, we don't say vaidabru Elohim, right? Um uh and I asked uh I asked David Rindy, whose wife is Israeli. I was like, do Israelis like, are they like weirded out by that or they just accept it? And he asked her, and she's like, Oh, I never thought about that. You know, it's funny. So I I you don't say you don't uh pluralize it when you're talking about God. So I would have said it's about God, but I think it's safe to assume this is talking about some class of people who have I would assume it's people who have actual like worthy covod, like Tadigim or Khachamim, as opposed to let's say, you know, people who are admired for stuff that don't really deserve the covod, you know. Yeah, Isaac?

SPEAKER_01 19:19

I actually was thinking the opposite. Oh, okay. It's uh people who do have who have covod, but not for um worthy reasons, and if you like I'm I'm trying to figure out exactly how I'm translating poker, but like maybe if you're like delving into their their covode, um then that's gonna um be give end up giving them more covode, which is not good.

SPEAKER_04 19:54

Okay, sorry, I missed just did you specify uh which kinds of people this is talking about?

SPEAKER_01 19:58

I said people who who uh who have let's say they have covet because of the because they're wealthy or because they're in a prestigious position, not necessarily people who you want to be amplifying their covered.

SPEAKER_04 20:10

Okay, so I'm just I'm just gonna say talking about people who have covered for reasons that don't have to do with the objective good. Okay, yeah. And as an example, wealth, you know, popularity, uh, etc. So you're saying that that investigating that covode will only give them more covered. Now are you talking about in your in your eyes or or are you talking about publicly or both? I'm talking about publicly. Okay. Um in society. In other words, like people, like uh just as a as an example, if everyone boycotted People Magazine, it would actually diminish the covode of the celebrities that are talking about in it. But the fact that people buy it gives them more cover. People are being coke care and it actually like like gives them more cover, you know? Uh or people being famous for being famous, you know, like like if you give them attention, then it just gives more more cover. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Um translation question. Yeah. So this is um it's it's actually it's faker covodam. That's the investigation of their cover, right? That's like a noun.

SPEAKER_04 21:14

Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Uh the investigation. Investigation of their glory is glorious. Yeah, yeah. Is I don't think so. I don't think cover means I think it's a noun. Uh yeah, Ezra. Okay, yeah, hold on just a second. Um, let's just think about this here. So so the only thing so I I agree with your second half, but I think we need to flesh out what the first half is adding. Yeah, Isaac. Yeah. Um so let me just say one thing before I forget. The reason why I am not inclined towards this approach is because of what we said about honey. That there is good in eating honey. Um, and um, and in fact, there is good in evening like a healthy serving of honey. But eating too much is bad. Whereas I would not say that being hooker, their cover might serve a purpose, right? Like it is good that that um, I don't know, like I don't know if it's good, but like it can be good that wealthy people have coveted because it it if if their wealth is used for good things, like as Lolishma or something like that, then then that could be beneficial. But like I get the in the sense here that we're not talking about a negative cover. So yeah, Isaac, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Yeah, so um I think this um maybe I'm something I'm reading fake air a little bit differently. Okay. Um I'm not sure if it's a valid, valid read, but that it's well like maybe like expounding their covered or something like that. Where you know you wanna be showing them covered by like expounding on it and doing that a little bit is good, but you know, like showing them honor um maybe it's good in terms of your relationship or whatever, but if you if you do it too much, what you're gonna do end up doing is not just it is uh like amplifying their covered in a way that um is not good.

SPEAKER_04 23:09

Okay, yeah. So here's another thing also. Uh another reason why I don't like this approach is because um is because or sorry, this is not this is a different aspect of the approach I don't like. The implication here is if you eat too much honey, it's not bad for anyone else. It's only bad for you. So that's why I don't think I think if we were to take this approach, we'd have to be saying it's bad for you in your relationship to the recovered, not the fact that you're giving them more attention in society. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Yeah, I hear that.

SPEAKER_04 23:38

Yeah. Okay, so I think in your eyes, uh, which will corrupt your values. And then I don't think you need to say Haker means expounding, expounding on, right? It just means like um means getting too involved, and I know I know that's vague, getting too involved in the uh the in admiring them, you know.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Um I'm trying to say that that a little bit is good though, and I think yeah, yeah, right, right.

SPEAKER_04 24:08

Yeah, I'll give an example that comes to mind that I don't know who else uh uh other than Isaac is an arrested development fan, but uh but uh George Michael, who's a uh kid, is talking to his dad about his uh his like history teacher. And uh this was a show that was filmed in the 2000s, and so so his dad mentions Saddam Hussein and his uh son says, Oh, my teacher loves Saddam Hussein, and and he's like as a subject, right? And it turns out she actually like loves Saddam Hussein, you know. So like I think there's a phenomenon, and I've read about this with uh people who are like investigative journalists, that or or even biographers, that you can be investigating what makes someone great, even if it's a thing that is objectively not great and it goes against your values, but you get too involved in like investigating and then it changes your values, you know. So uh I think that to me that's like the phenomenon this is talking about here.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Okay, yeah. For that, um, what's the good of a little bit of investigation?

SPEAKER_04 25:08

So, what I would say is that understanding um uh so I'm not saying like you about showing them covod, uh, is that understanding okay, there's a there's a very good TTL here called security and wealth, you know? Um, and I think that if you understand why this is uh an uh why this is appealing, you know, then that is uh that can be very useful for your own development. If you look into the psychology of, let's say, like, I remember having a discussion, I don't know if any of you were there uh at the Zimmers, about like, you know, would you if you had an opportunity uh to I'm actually thinking about the Pope today because of the uh his he issued an AI uh thing that I haven't read yet. Yeah, yeah, right. But someone we were saying, like if you had the opportunity to sit down with with the Pope or Hitler and like talk with them, would you? And the person at the table said, no, of course not. And we were like, what? Like, no, I I certainly would like there's understanding what the appeal of this this person is, or again, another um, I'm just gonna all these examples are flooded again. Another example is uh Sam Harris says that he only interacted with Jeffrey Epstein once, and it was at uh some fundraiser or something like that. And he he just saw Jeffrey Epstein sitting there with like this young girl on his lap. And he was like, that one moment like told him everything he needed to know about like what kind of like like the good fact, not that this guy was even the fact that he was doing it, but doing it in public and like people were like fawning over him for this, like there's a lot of benefit that you can get from or reading biographies of Roshian, you know, like there's a lot of reasons why being covot is beneficial to you, but there's a certain but you can get drawn into the orbit, not the orbit even, you can get drawn into the magnetism of of that person because it's it's covot. In fact, the more successful they are in that sphere, the more prone you're gonna be to admiring them. That's my my take on this. I don't know if I just co-opted your idea, but yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Yeah, I I uh I cede to your co-option. Okay, yes.

SPEAKER_05 27:09

Like even critical investigation might lead to the opposite way.

SPEAKER_04 27:13

Exactly. Yeah, and it's not even the opposite in a way that see, okay, maybe this is different. Okay, in the last honey mushle, you vomited out, which means that you we I think we read it last time that vomiting it out means that it's an unpleasant experience and you lose any medicinal benefit you you would have gotten. This though, we still maybe have to explain why it's low TOVE and not bad, but like I'm saying, like you could they could coexist. Like maybe like the person who who loves Saddam Hussein is also gonna understand why you know like why people admire him, but you're also gonna corrupt your own your own values. So it could coexist. Yeah, Isaac.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Yeah, I'd say maybe the low tove is that you you know you're like, oh, I'm gonna eat honey for its medicinal benefits. Yeah. And so you think you're gonna get good. And then you like, you know, let's say the recommended serving is one teaspoon. Right. And you eat like five tablespoons instead, because you're like, oh, it's honey's good, so I'm gonna eat a little more. And then you know, but then really it's not a good idea.

SPEAKER_04 28:12

You know, I actually I actually want to just not even as a uh an own uh as an idea here, but just to flag this this um uh it's not even a full proverb, but this American or English idiom, too much of a good thing, right? Uh that that I think we have to keep that in mind. That's how we should think of honey again. Again, like it this is not a kid picking out on candy. This is someone saying, like Isaac just said, oh, medicine is good, so if I quadruple the dose, then it's it's even better. But like, no, yeah. Uh okay, let's go on to David.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Different idea. Um taking the eating honey metaphorically, is that okay?

SPEAKER_04 28:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

Okay. So I'm thinking about this paso being about how to uh attain cavod. Okay. And I think two things. One, I'll say the first half is um, okay, so if we were to call uh honey like this good pleasant thing, if you were to call that cavod, I think it's good in small quantities, but not in too large quantities. I'll get the second half in a second, but I think that if you were to be totally like never let any cavod come to you, that's gonna be then you're just actually not getting any covod. Um, but then overly doing it and overly trying to get it or like basking in the cavot too much, then people are going to look at that and say this guy's just honor hungry.

unknown 29:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

And I think on the second half, um, Khir Kyodam Kavod, I don't have a specific who the Kavot is for. I think just as a general move, if you're willing to look at other people that are honorable and like step back and say, wow, that's actually like an impressive person, that takes away any of the I'm fighting for like the ego battles of that come from trying to get honor, and you're just actually willing to like put yourself lower than someone, that itself is very admirable, and that will be a lot that will give a person a lot more glory than something when it's evident that he's just trying to get the glory.

SPEAKER_04 30:11

Okay, that's so if you look at people who are honorable and you you uh remove yourself from the competitive mindset and actually admire them for what is admirable, uh that itself will um will result in covode for you. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Yeah, and I'll say that in two fold. The one that I think is more direct is that people will look at you and then be able to say, wow, this person actually isn't like uh fighting it for himself and it's not like an ego thing, he just like actually looking at this person. And I think as an aside, then also if he's recognizing what's honorable in someone else, then he can learn that and mimic it as well.

SPEAKER_04 30:50

If you are recognizing something that is truly honorworthy in someone else, in someone else, uh, and you uh are able to remove yourself in the aforementioned way, you can uh learn from that. Um so just a few statements of a chazal that come to mind. Any anyone have any statements of chazal that come to mind that support David? Isaac Piero Gabos.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

The person who runs away from Kavo and is given Kavo?

SPEAKER_04 31:21

Uh very close. Um it's like totally blanking honors others, right? Is that what you were thinking of, Isaac? I said I'm totally blanking. Oh, okay, fine. All right. Um just a second here. Uh Benzoma. Um uh Azehu Muhubat Hamakabe des Abrios, if you honor others, right? So that that like is straight up saying what Doug is saying. Another thing that comes to mind about the honey thing, so Dummy says it's like good in in small measure. Anyone know the percentage that it's not really about covod, but anyone know the uh percentage of that because I'll say? Oh, about um like you should about whether you should seek any covode. Okay, yeah, that's the thing. I think we're thinking of the same thing. Yeah, um I think this is gonna be in the in the far shim on the it's really about uh Gaiva, right? Um, but I think they tie it to Kavode, right? So uh where did I just skip it? Yeah. Um so there's a Kazal Bashamta di isbegas' ruch of a philomiksasa. So someone should be in like uh you know excommunicated or be in the nidwe ostracized if uh I forgot which one Shamta is. Um if he has a little bit of haughtiness, sorry, if he has haughtiness, even a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 32:37

Okay, so I let's see if the Abshood quotes this. A lot of memories, a lot of memories. Uh oh. Let's just say Gasus.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Ruah Pushilo Zara, Amru Kalika Icker, Zurah Royal Legado, Gas of In Afaro, and Jesus.

unknown 33:05

I thought so.

SPEAKER_04 33:06

Yeah. Uh Bishi Uro, here we go. Uh Amru Rava, yeah. Bishamta di ispe, delay Spe. Okay, right. So you're here. You're actually if you have it and if you don't. Or Slomar, Shagam in Royal Lintos, Le Shiflusha Ruach, Lagarmi. You should not be totally Schwal Ruach, uh, like who? Not totally Schwal Ruach, but who like is criticized for not shawl, right? For not having the cover that he should have had. And that was that was more my understanding. I haven't learned it inside, but that was more for like practical reasons of like the king needs to have covet. You know, you can't be a king. It's not really about personal midos, but it is a personal flaw. Yeah. Uh Lapisha Inze Malos. That's uh Shiflus Ruach is an extreme, that's not one of the malos, although it says, which is another thing. Um Vish Uro S Zeberak Marshal, Khalik Mishishim V Arba 64. I it's funny. In my mind, I thought it was an eighth. That was my uh my thing, but whatever. Yeah, yeah, right. Uh, but I knew it had something to do with eights. Uh, you know, um a uh uh one part of 64. All right, in nasim as a gaiva zikzeha echadse hasheni, vi nehem mirchak shishim for bakalakim. So you have a scale from zero to sixty-four. Don't ask me if it's one to sixty-four. I I I can't handle that kind of thing, right? So you should go one notch, right?

SPEAKER_06 34:25

Explain about one sixty four, then zero.

SPEAKER_04 34:29

Um uh, I don't uh I'm not uh let's see. Uh Bhashini Ye Mirchabhishim Barbaim Varba Khalakim Yamura Anam Bchelik has shishim vishlos. Should go to the 63rd notch. You should not be in the middle with this Mita. Uh Hazo. Davka kidla harkim in the gaiva. Uh uh Davka in order to distance yourself from Gaiva. Shimcher Khelak niskarv lagai, hari nikhnas biklaha shamta. So that's the sweet spot, right? If you go one more notch to the gyva side, then you're in uh shamta. Zohaisadea raba uh rava bhanava. Okay, that's the uh okay, I'm not gonna go with whom akalocus. So again, not not it's not um this is uh obviously that's about gaiva, but when you get covod, you are risking stoking the gyva, right? Like it's not an inherent risk, but you are putting yourself at risk of that. So I can see a person doing what David said is like, oh, it's bad, I'm gonna avoid it altogether. But no, no, no, it's it's good, but just too much is not good. Yeah. I had one more thing also that um, oh yeah, an example of this is uh I think it is moving to people, even who are not sports people like myself, when you see a really gracious um second place winner or silver medalist who is genuinely like celebrating the person who beat them, like that's like the type of thing that that W is saying that people will honor you if you're honoring the other person and not being like bitter, you know, sore loser um for uh for for like you uh not getting that degree of cover. Yeah, sir.

SPEAKER_06 36:02

I have another sure, but it's a little speculative.

SPEAKER_04 36:04

That's fine. Um I won't tell.

SPEAKER_06 36:06

Can honey?

SPEAKER_04 36:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:08

Can honey be compared to Torah?

SPEAKER_04 36:09

Yes, and that you know who does that? The Ram Bomb. Yeah, yeah. Um, so I I mentioned by the way, I mentioned in the chat that uh Joshua and I were learning this over Shvos that uh the Ramam applies this to Torah. I won't divulge how. Uh and in fact, it comes right after. So this is in the More 130. There's a uh a section of program 131 through 134. So 130, I think, is eating. And he says that that's about knowledge, and then he segues from there into this. Yeah. Okay. Oh, sorry, you had something. Yeah. Talks lotion, yeah, right. Yeah, correct, right. That's Torah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:50

So I was thinking that the vodon is Tobodal tomato comment. Okay. Um and it's similar to like much of a good thing, but I think there is the first half of telling you that there's a certain attitude people could have towards Torah and knowledge in general, which is basically just to eat it up as much as you can. Yeah. And like you look at like the covert of tomato climate or the what seems to be the good of Torah, and you just sort of like get tanted sort of. But that's not good, that's not actually building to cover because it's just looking at it like in a certain arbitrary way, like this was good, so let me just get as much as I can, yeah. Without really realizing the that bit that it actually has. And there is a specific good which it has, not just to sort of amass as much as you can.

unknown 37:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 37:36

Well, no, I'm saying that if you have if you just treat it like something which is like a sort of like good which you just have to amass as much of, you're not gonna really get it.

SPEAKER_04 37:44

Right. You're saying it's not purely quantitative, right? Uh uh, it's that the the you know, the the Tamil Khamim uh pursue Torah with Chokmah, right? I mean, I'm just saying, you know, with uh you know, and and that is what makes them successful. Sorry, with Chachma as opposed to as opposed to uh to just mindless uh you know goblin, right?

SPEAKER_06 38:11

Like just not to just as a big damage like Dafiomi and something. Yeah, right, right.

SPEAKER_04 38:17

Right. As opposed to I think Rashi says Z Dafyomi on this possible, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_06 38:23

So then the question is what is the problem method to look into how to get the cabinet torah? Yeah. And I think the point is once you start being heiker into what about the cut comment comment that's causing the cabot, that itself is the cover. I mean, once you're looking at it with an approach of what is the exact cause, as opposed to just looking at it like, oh, looking together as much as I can, that daraf is the daraf of torah which will bring you cabot.

SPEAKER_04 38:47

Okay, all right, I I I hear the uh the speculativeness, but I I think this is this is a good approach. To be choked kvodam, um uh that will now you're saying sorry, you're saying that people will honor you by being choker kovon, or being chokhir khotam will will tell you how to become a khaum to get the kabod.

SPEAKER_06 39:06

Well, I guess I'm saying that I'm sort of saying kavod at the kavod is like a kabbot's been, yeah. Which means that you're just somebody who actually has the true value. Yeah. And by investigating how they got their covod, that itself is gonna cause you to have that cover.

SPEAKER_04 39:21

Well, we'll keep elaborate on the cause. So I'm saying that in other words, the the Navkamina case is someone who's in their first year of yeshiva, but is really actually being the covod in a good way. Is he having covod now, or that's the derek that will lead him to become Atomic Khaqim and get the covod?

SPEAKER_06 39:40

Um, I would say both. Okay. I just mean that that's the proper death to be faker. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:45

Okay, so the derek to get that covod uh uh is to understand the intricacies. I know that's not the word you use, but intricacies of how to to develop into a Tamil uhim. Yeah. Yes, yeah, okay, good. Um, yeah. So I had a similar approach that is also just half-baked here, or just mine's half-baked here, is I was thinking that um you guys know about the the band book uh Making of a Guttle? Ever heard of this? Oh, yeah. Yeah, so this book, uh, do you know anyone know who wrote it? It was a Kamenevsky, I think. I just forget which one. Um Making of a Goddle. Yeah, Nelson Kamanetsky. Okay, so yeah, okay. So what happened? So I was I was around when this happened is that uh when it was published in 2002. That's my first year in Yeshiva. Wow. Yeah, because I remember Yehuda Friedman got a uh uh uncensored copy. So this book was uh it was about his father and a bunch of other Gadolim um and it's an English book. Uh I think it was written in English primarily. Um yeah, and uh with the improved edition, yeah, um, about the life of his father and various other Jewish sages of the 19th and 20th centuries. So what happened was so again, this is a very credible person who had a lot of access to inside information. Um, and it uh but what happened is even though it was published by oh wait, Hamasuri? Is that that's a division of art scroll, I think. Right. So but it was not art school biography enough to do that. It like said stuff about basically that showed that these were human beings. Like I remember the thing that people were scandalized by is uh Yaakov Kamanetsky like wrote love letters to uh when he was dating his uh his his wife, like before he before they got married, you know, and it made them too humanized. And then people felt that it was disrespectful to the Godolin. And then that resulted in him making releasing a uh uh an improved edition, you know, that that cut out a lot of that, a lot of that stuff. So I think the bad improvement got in the I think so also. Yeah, I think so. Even the ones that uh but so the ones that are uncensored are very rare. Um uh yeah, so I was thinking that that's the idea is that you do there is a mitzvah of uh Tamit Khohamim, um of which is really Uladovka Bo, right? Is that the mitzvah is to cling to Hashem, but let me just read it in the Ramam. Um Rambam Deus um uh my most quoted Rambam. Uh I'm not gonna quote it. All right. So it's a positive mistake is to cling to khakamim, could they lilmubi masayim, in order to learn from their deeds, their actions. It says you should cling to him, to God. Uh, is it possible for a person to cling to the shina? By the way, you see that Azal don't use Shinah as the feminine side of God. Okay, just FYI, by the way, this is a head peeve of mine. This whole notion of shina being the feminine side of God, in addition to being heretical, is not something that the non-Kabbalistic say. Like that that was innovated by Kabbalists, you know. Um, so I again it's but but that's like so popular. Like it's so popular now. I mean, not just now, but like for a while. Right. This is what the Khamimim say about this mitzvo. Hidabik pa khachamim vitamid. You should cling to khachamim and their their students. Therefore, a person should strive to marry the daughter of a Tamil Khachamim and to marry his daughter off to a Tamil Khachamim and to eat and drink with Tamil Khachamim, Valais says prakmatya tamilchim, and then make do business with Tamil Khachamim, Uli Shabir lahm bikhul mini khibo, and to associate with them in all ways of association. Snemar Ludovka bo. It says it says, and to cling to him. Umru bhavi mis abik ba afar raglaim the shoshabatama estibraim. It says you should uh um wallow in the dust of their feet. I don't think this means like wrestle, but wallow in the dust of their feet and drink with thirst their words. Okay, so I think that there is so in general, that is good, but there is a limit, and uh anyone thinking of the Same story. It's not exactly for being uh for their cover, but the story about someone going too far.

SPEAKER_07 44:06

In the Gamer? Yeah. Follow their reveal in his bedroom.

SPEAKER_04 44:09

Yeah, right. Is uh did you say father? Oh, follow his reveal into his bedroom. Yeah, so so uh do you remember who it was? Riv Khan. Ruf Khana, yeah, yeah. So he was the one who got followed or followed.

SPEAKER_03 44:18

He got followed.

SPEAKER_04 44:19

Yeah, so Ruf Khana's Talmud, and who the Thomas is also named, right? Yeah, followed his Revy into his bedroom and the bathroom, right? To figure out basically like it was really to learn from his actions, right? But at there is a point where it becomes a breach of the covod to do that, you know. So I thought the Gumara was saying. Yeah, I gotta go back and read the Gumara. Um, but I I would say though that um I think we would all agree that there is a way you could do that that is that is breaching the covet, either for the Talmud or for the for the Rebbe. Like you're not supposed to follow it to go with your Rebbe into the bathhouse, right? Like that's a that is a thing because it's not it's not uh coven. Um unless you're like an attendant or something like that. Um so that was my direction here is that it could undermine the there is a point where it undermines the covod. Yeah, Moja?

SPEAKER_05 45:06

Is that what the second half is saying?

SPEAKER_04 45:08

No, because the way I'm reading is like this is eating too much honey is is is is uh is not good. Um and the chaker covodum, yeah, I guess I need to smooth this out here, but uh the way I'm just loosely reading it, chakr investigating their covod for covod, too much is not good. You know, I'm applying the the um the the the harbos lotov to both halves, which is that's a legitimate move. Right, it's like you you apply the same predicate to both subjects. Yeah. Um, in other words, to investigate their covod as a way of uh as as an endeavor for covod is uh is not good. Oh, we're over time. All right, so let's stop here for today and continue tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

Thank you. Thanks, thank you, Ros.