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The Mishlei Podcast
The Mishlei Podcast
Mishlei 17:28 - How a Fool Can Appear Wise
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Mishlei 17:28 - How a Fool Can Appear Wise
גַּם אֱוִיל מַחֲרִישׁ חָכָם יֵחָשֵׁב אֹטֵם שְׂפָתָיו נָבוֹן:
Length:
Synopsis: This evening (6/8/26), in our last Monday Night Mishlei shiur of the season, we learned another pasuk about silence - this one seemingly advising a fool how to pass as a chacham or a navon. We raised a ton of questions, developed some excellent ideas and half-ideas, and rounded it out with three meforshim, including a surprisingly counterintuitive read from the Metzudas David. And with that, we have finished our SIXTH year of Monday Night Mishlei, our 17th chapter of Mishlei, and the last pasuk in the "second book of Mishlei." That's right: we've had shiur on every single pasuk in Chapters 10 through 24 (with 25 slated to finish on Thursday). It has been a wonderful ride, especially with our Monday Night Mishlei crew, and I can't wait to resume in the Fall, God willing!
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מקורות:
משלי יז:כח
רמב"ם - משנה תורה: ספר המדע, הלכות דעות ב:ד-ה
מצודת ציון/דוד
רבינו יונה
מאירי
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The Torah content for this month has been sponsored by Meir Areman, l'zeicher nishmas Zelda bas Ziesel, his grandmother, whose yahrzeit is on the 21st of Sivan.
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All right, we are on the last puzzle in the chapter and the last Mishlay shear of the season. Um so this is Mishlei 1728. And there are many Mufarshim who say that this is a continuation of the one we did last week. So we're gonna approach it as a standalone because I think it can be approached as a standalone. But after uh we read and translate it, I will show you, I'll remind you of the one last week in case people want to um connect it. Okay. Gam Evil Maharish Chacham Yihasheev Otim Safasav Navon. Anyone want to try translating? There's a little bit of nuance. Not to scare anyone off from the nuance, but okay. Yeah, Moshe, go ahead.
SPEAKER_05Okay, so I don't know your best word for Evil. I just know I think the mob in the one is skeptic.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, we that's he's like a rarity of there, so we will just say fool.
SPEAKER_05Fine, fool. Um and I was thinking uh makes the wise man or wise person smart.
SPEAKER_08Interesting, because of like herish like uh clever person? Yes, yes. Interesting. Okay, that's a creative uh translation, not not the standard.
SPEAKER_05Okay, fine.
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Oh well you did you put the comment in for Yeh after Yehashav?
SPEAKER_08Uh yes. It is Gam Evil Machrish Chakam Yeh Shav.
SPEAKER_05Oh, okay. So I guess an Evil who makes someone else wise, that person will be considered wise.
SPEAKER_08Okay. And the OTIM is uh to to shut up.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. So one who stops up his lips will be um, I don't know a best translate nov.
SPEAKER_08Okay, all right, valiant effort, valiant effort. Okay, so I'm gonna translate it. Uh I yeah, Yitsi.
SPEAKER_01I was just gonna give it another shot. Go ahead. That um also a fool who is silent will be considered wise, yeah, and one who blocks his lips, a person of understanding.
SPEAKER_08Yes, okay, correct. That that is more in line with the standard reading, okay? One who who uh blocks his lips, uh understanding. Okay, yeah. So gum, and I'm gonna actually translate it um so you can translate gum as also or even, okay. I feel like also would be the one that connects it to the previous puzzle, but even would be the one that makes it standalone. So I actually am gonna put even first. So even or also a fool who is silent, we consider wise. Now, here's where I I was alluding to the nuance here, okay. And I don't know the best way to translate this in English, but what is the what is implied by the the verb structure of Maharish? Quiet, like so it yeah, it's causative, right? So it's not that he is silent, and I don't, I mean, it might be that as well. I don't know how you would say is silent, but I think like literally it's even a fool who silences, okay, and I think the implication is silences himself, all right, will be considered wise. I think that's like the cleanest way to translate it. Um because because it yeah, it's it's it's it's machari. He makes silent, all right, we'll be considered wise. And then um, and also I don't know if chhacham is adjective or a noun, so wise or a wise person, okay. Uh, I'm gonna go ahead and say with the with a uh and say, uh, it's fine, we could keep it this way. Okay, and one who blocks his lips, uh, understanding. Okay, I can do I'm gonna do chacham with the transliteration just so we can know that that is a Hebrew term that is ambiguous, and then Navon. And the implication here is um, I think I think it's safe to put this in brackets, is will be considered okay, understanding. All right, all right, so let's look at some of these other translations here. So we got Natus Sion who says Otem is in schema. So uh Otem means to stop up. Uh Sadigon, uh, the the Arabic translation of Sadigun does not get a treatment by Kafik or um Rav Amram Korah, which I assume means that it's just a straight-up translation. And I don't know Judeo-Arabic, and our YouTube friend is not here live this time to read the Judeo-Arabic like it was last time, uh, our special guest. Okay, and then Targum also Vaf Shatia Deshasiq Hakimahu, who means Khashiv, Wutchali Sif Vase uh Misbayan. I think that's just a straight-up translation. Okay, so nothing, nothing new here as far as I'm concerned. Okay, and then Art Scroll says, even a fool will be considered wise if he is silent. When he seals his lips, he will be considered understanding. Reverse says, even a fool when he keeps silent. Keep silent is another one that could work for our English here. Um, because keep silent implies like a sort of active, causative thing. Um uh and he who locks his lips is intelligent. Okay, fine. He translates novel as intelligent. Alter says, a silent dolt too may be considered reckoned wise, who seals his lips may be uh deemed discerning. I actually forgot to include the altered footnote. Hold on. I didn't even read it. Um but why didn't I read it? Because Ariel, I was experimenting with uh with Claude to see if I could just put a normal source sheet the way I usually do it, and then have it assemble the entire source sheet. Um, it did not work because it was not able to get the text from either Al Torah or um uh MG Ketter, but uh uh for the Mufarshim. But uh, but you know, we'll the we're gonna work on that. Okay. Um 20. No, sorry, not 27, 17. 1728 says, hold on. So yes, the footnote says this proverb, uh fine. No, he usually gives an interpretation. I don't even need it. Okay. And then Peskin says, even a silent fool is considered wise, one who shuts their lips understanding. Okay, so let me actually just uh copy and paste this into the chat before I forget. Okay, let us, yeah, let's uh let's ask questions on this, and then after we do the questions on this one alone, then I'll go back and uh and review the the previous PUSOK. What are the questions? Yeah, Stephanie.
SPEAKER_13Is this related in any way to the last pasuk?
SPEAKER_08Okay, so you want the last passock now? Okay, so Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_13Never never mind.
SPEAKER_08Last PUSOK says, um, one who withholds his statements knows knowledge, uh, one whose ruach is yakar, which we translated most of the time as one whose uh uh speech is sparing or sparing in his speech as a person of understanding. Um, so thematically this is definitely connected to the last puzzle, but like I said, we're gonna take this on its own first.
SPEAKER_13Right, yeah, sorry.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, no, no worries. Uh Ariel. Yeah, what's the what's the point of the Pasuk?
SPEAKER_09Okay. What what will you say what's the point? What do you mean? I mean, like, it's more of a question on the first half of the puzzle, but like I mean, like, like what's like I guess I guess like will the fool really care about this, you know, like like I mean it seems like most fools want to be viewed as smart.
SPEAKER_08I've never met a fool who does not want to be viewed as smart.
SPEAKER_09Uh okay.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, and you see them pretending all the time.
SPEAKER_09Right, I guess so.
SPEAKER_08I accept that you are asking a good question, but I think it needs to be refined because there might be several questions in there.
SPEAKER_09Right, yeah. Okay, Alex.
SPEAKER_08Oh, sorry. No, you okay. You have something, Arya?
SPEAKER_09No, that's fine though.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, Alex, go ahead.
SPEAKER_12I'm curious why they uh use the word a word uh aveal instead of feel here. Okay, that's a fair question. So what's the difference between this kind of fool versus a different kind of fool?
SPEAKER_08Okay, so what does um actually I'm gonna go ahead and add that in here, even um aveal. Okay, so let's ask the question is what does aveal mean in this context? Um is this being used uh generically or in a technical sense? Okay, uh and um I'll tell you why I'm laughing in a second. And um and uh what was I gonna say? I lost I distracted myself. Oh, and and if so, um if in a technical sense, what why Aveal and not some other fool? Um the reason why I'm laughing is because uh six or seven years ago, whenever it was that Rabbi Zimmer taught Mishleh at Rambam for one year, then I remember uh Aaron Azus was in his class and it was on a Shabbos that we're talking, and and Aaron Azus was talking about Mishle. He's like, every puzzle is just about fools and lips. Uh, and it is a funny thing that like uh Aveal, for some reason in my mind, Aveal is often associated with speech. So that's not answering the question, but it's just I guess if anything, strengthening the question that, like, you know, I think that is very common for Aveil to have to do with uh speech psukin. Not sure why. Yeah, okay. Uh I think Seth is next.
SPEAKER_10Okay, what is the difference between Otem Svatov? How is that a higher level of withholding speech compared to a macharish, just like the bone being a higher level than Khan?
SPEAKER_08Okay, right. I was gonna I was gonna ask if that was your premise, and that is uh I think that's correct. Okay, so actually let me let me go let me go back one step here, okay, which is um see it's interesting, okay. You are relying on the premise that I said before. I can see a possibility where that might not be true here. So okay, let me let me get uh let's ask our basic questions first, which is what is the definition of or I guess what are the definitions? We'll put it in one question. What are the definitions of navon in this context? Okay, and is um is and and is one higher than the other, or uh and if so, which one? Or are they just different? Okay, the reason why I'm I'm asking this here is because and this is I'm I'm I'm wondering why I'm only asking this here, but I think it's because you usually initially we're dealing with an actual Kakam or an actual Navon. But since here we're we're talking about someone thinking that this is a Kakam or a Navon, then I don't know if we have to actually treat one as higher than the other in actuality. In other words, there there might be certain like visible or perceivable uh features of a Navon or a Khakam, and the the Avial just might be like viewed as having those. You know what I'm saying? Like, like, you know, so so in the order, uh Seth is going off of the premise I said maybe last week or the week before, that like the order generally is Chachma Tvuna Da'as, you know, wisdom, understanding, and knowledge. And then um, but there are exceptions to that, and then you know, so the that's one question. And then the other question is is what is the difference between uh Maharish, okay, silences himself, and Otim Sfasav, which is blocks his lips. Um, and is one a uh you know on a higher level than the other? Uh and if so, what makes it what makes that so? Yeah. So good questions. I just I I somehow when you asked the question, then it made me realize that like the premises might not be solid. Alex, I think your hand is up from before, right? I didn't like miss your your hand thing. Yeah, sorry. Okay, that's fine. Yeah, uh Rivki.
SPEAKER_02So I'm curious about the circumstances, I guess, of like why they're doing this. Um and in each half, is it the same circumstance? That's where we're assuming.
SPEAKER_08Okay, so um this kind of touches on the question that Ariel uh attempted to launch, uh, but it is more specific. Uh so the question is why is the Aveal um trying to do this? You know, um, and what was the second thing that you said after that?
SPEAKER_02And are we assuming that the Aveal and the Navo or the person who has understanding in the are they in the same situation?
SPEAKER_08Like are they there's only one person in the PUSA.
SPEAKER_02Is the I think I think so, yeah.
SPEAKER_08Meaning in other words, I okay, maybe not, but the way I I think the simplest way to read it is the Aveil who is mach is considered a chokam, and the evil who shuts his lips is considered a nav.
SPEAKER_02All right, interesting. I totally wasn't taking it like that.
SPEAKER_08Oh, okay, it couldn't it could not be. All right, let's actually ask that as a question then. Okay, so let's say why are why are the people in the Pusuk um doing this? Okay, and then let's ask also, is the is the Aveal the sole subject of the Pusuk? Or, you know, um i.e. um you know and and and it's talking about two things he might do, or is this talking is um is the person in the second half a non-avile, right? That's how you were thinking about it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I wasn't sure like grammar-wise, if it only had to be that way.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, I mean the only the reason I I I'm uh I'm I I read it this way, which I realize now is not a good reasoning, is I was just carrying over the all the predicates of the first half and then just switching the second the second one. So the um, or not the sub I was carrying over a lot from the first half, you know, maximal amount you're carrying minimal amount. Yeah, all right, both of those are fair readings. Um uh and then I'm gonna also add here uh why are the people in this process doing this? Does it even matter? And again, I know I've said this a bunch of times, but I'm just gonna repeat what Raymond Mosquit's uh uh his warning, his periodic summer warning to me was you know, don't get so caught up in the psychology. Um and what he meant by that is not that Michle doesn't deal with psychology, but that Michle first and foremost deals with consequences of actions. And there is a way to learn Michle where you miss out on that entire layer by making the entire thing about psychology. And at the end of the day, you have to answer the question what makes this action result in him being considered a navoon. So it might not matter why he's doing it, you know, or it could be that another reason why it's not good to get caught up in the psychology is because you know, Michlei is giving you a toolkit of decision making, and there could be the same maneuver you make that pays off in a bunch of different uh scenarios, and you don't want to limit the idea to to one motive, you know. So good question, but we'll have that as a as a a war uh um a cautionary uh note. Okay, uh Yeti.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, my question is is this true slash like what do we limit to? Because I've spent time with plenty of people who are in like who are quiet, and I don't always play being like, wow, this person's brilliant.
SPEAKER_08Yep, okay, good. Okay, so uh I think that is a very important question. Okay, is this true? Okay, and or what are the parameters? Okay, there are there are many uh people who remain silent and are not thought to be wise or understanding. Um uh what differentiates uh what differentiates them from the case here? Yeah, Moshe.
SPEAKER_05Okay. Sorry, technical difficulties. Yeah. What's the significance of the word yehsha shape? Why can't it just say gamma will not be chachum? If he's quiet, it will become a chakam.
SPEAKER_08Okay, so yeah, that's an important question, also.
SPEAKER_05Okay, which is I'm gonna actually split that into two, which is Yeah, and can I ask can I or in specific at least does Yeh Shape refer to like the immediate? Because the future tends, it can, even though it's in the future, it can refer to like he is considered Kham right now, or in the future he'll be considered right now, which would imply that this would um this is like a process.
SPEAKER_08Right, okay, good. So what does will uh will be considered wiser understanding mean? Um so the question, I I think you were assuming one side of this question I'm about to ask, uh, but I think we need to unpack it, which is um is is this you know I guess I guess does uh the perception of him reflect a reality or a falsehood? Right? That's a huge uh a huge issue. In other words, is it that people will consider him this, but he really is not this, which would answer your question, or if he actually will become this, then why does it say considered? Okay, and then um then is that if it's describing I guess either way, either way is or will be considered uh uh in uh you know even in the present tense, you know I guess even in the present, uh, or only you know long term. Yeah, okay, Seth.
SPEAKER_10Is this Plusuk a how-to for dummies? Yeah, audience for for us watching other people play out.
SPEAKER_08Okay, that's really good, also. Okay, so who is the intended audience? Okay, um if it's for the avil, um then is this a how-to for avilium? Uh and if so, what is the nature of the avil's? Or I guess not not to repeat Rifki's question. I'm gonna actually make it slightly different. What is the nature of Shlomo's interest in giving this advice to the avil? Okay, uh, this is this is worse than a motivation question, right? This is like what is Shlomo's motive, but again, it's like you don't usually see see Shlomo advising Aveil, right? Um, so that's where you have the other thing. Or is this a warning to us about how we evaluate uh the silent types, right? It's always the silent ones who are the murderers, right? Um, yeah, Rivki.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm not sure if this would be included in seven or eight, but I'm also wondering like what Moshe was asking about the the considered, who like does it matter that yeah, like who is that?
SPEAKER_08Good question, yeah. Yeah, I think I'll add that as a new question here. Okay, uh, who is considering him this? Is it, you know, and this would be yeah, you know, actually you're right, it's a different question, but it's so related to the previous one. Okay, so I'll say, like, depending on how we answer seven, I don't want to make it seven, uh, who is considering him this? Uh, you know, to be uh to be these things?
SPEAKER_02Is it someone doesn't matter?
SPEAKER_08Like, yeah, right. So let's say first, is it someone who who ought to know better? Or is it everyone? Or is it someone who doesn't know? Yeah, and does it matter? Yeah, right, consider it considered by whom. Yeah, it's an important question. Yeah, Isaiah.
SPEAKER_11Yeah, two questions.
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_11Um first one is what is the gum adding like in addition to or even like yeah, in addition to what, you know, like what's that referring to?
SPEAKER_08What does uh the gom, which is even or also um add, or how does it change our reading? How yeah, yeah, I guess yeah, what what function does the gom serve? Okay, so one possibility if it means even, uh then um what is the Hiddish, right, uh slash Hava Amina, right? Meaning what is the new point slash uh false assumption we would have made? Um and what is the basic insight this is building on. And then if this means also, then how do we connect it to the idea in the previous PUSIC? I think that's the only way to learn also if you're gonna learn it as also, because it last PUSIC literally talks about this case. So, you know, you either have to make this its own PUSIC or you have to say also in addition to what it spoke about before. Yeah, and then your second question?
SPEAKER_11Yeah. Um similar to like what you were asking about like before me. Um like is um is this like a positive phenomenon? Like, like let's say it regardless of it's if if it's advice for the pool or for someone else, like is it right, is it like a good thing that this happens or I think we have negative things, put that down your else.
SPEAKER_08Okay, so um is this a good thing or a bad thing? Uh in other words, um like if we we answer uh you know if we assume that he's being considered a a chakram or navon uh but is not really one, that might be good for him, okay, in the short term at least, uh uh, but not for others who are operating on a false uh assumption, okay. Um and then uh I'll say, but if we assume that he will become a chakon and nabon, uh then that really is a good thing. For everyone. Yeah. Um I assume that's Avital, because I don't see Yet. Yeah.
SPEAKER_14Yeah. So um I was wondering um kind of a two-part question, if this is about the um like somebody else who is like looking at people who are silencing themselves as fools, is there something like within the um wording that either would point out like a certain type of person that's like likely to fall into this trap? Um or on the side of the like fool, is there like something within the wording of the way he's silencing himself um to like know that he's not necessarily who you might think he is?
SPEAKER_08Okay. I'm actually gonna fold that into Yitzi's question about the the truth and parameters here, because this is really more of a parameters question, which is you know, what actually it really pertains to a lot of these questions. All right, so maybe I'll make it its own question then. I'll put it in nine. Um what is it about the person so I guess if if uh if the the Aveal is fooling others, um what is it about the person fooled that fooled uh that allows him to be fooled? And um what was the other thing you said? What is it about him?
SPEAKER_14Or also is there something within the type of like silencing?
SPEAKER_08Or the silencing, yeah, yeah, right, right. Uh so what is it about the person up for it? Right, or the silencing, the manner of silencing, right? That allows uh this the the the the victim to be fooled. I don't know if victim's really a word, but whatever. Yeah, Alex.
SPEAKER_12I'm curious if there's a way to read this where there are two people present: the um aveal who's silencing himself, and a secondary person who blocks his lips perhaps when he's talking later.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, we uh we did. I was not reading that at the very beginning, and then Rifki apparently was reading it that way, and I think both are good readings. So that's what I acknowledged in. Right, right, right. Is the avil the sole subject of the puzzle? And it's talking about two things he might do, or is the person in the second half a non-avil? Thank you. I missed that. Thank you. No worries. Uh Stephanie.
SPEAKER_13Uh, why is Ychashev only used with Chacham and not with Navon? Is there any significance to that? Because it chooses to you use the word Yachashav, which is strange. They usually wouldn't like put that word in.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, why is Ychashiv used uh only in the first half? Yeah, Yosef, you had something to say?
SPEAKER_00I was gonna say that grammatically it it seems like um it seems like you it there has to be some kind of continuity because without the verb of Yekhashev extending to the second half, it it ends up very awkward unless you say that the subject is uh is or at least Yekhashev is continuing to the next part, but probably a uh Avil as well.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, right, right. That's I think that that that's how I was reading it as well. Uh so I'll just add beyond you know um the grammatical economy of the second half. Yeah. Okay, anything else that we're not asking? Kamabil Maharish, Khacham Yi Khashiv. I I guess this is uh this doesn't have to be its own question, but um but regardless of who this is for, um like maybe this is the parameters question. I I think this is the parameters question, but it's from a different side, which is like, what are the practical uh parameters of applying this? In other words, Yitzi was asking uh about saying like there are people who are silent and you don't consider them to be chamim. Well, insofar as this plus is true, and if I want to apply this, then how how how do I go about doing that? Is it just I'm like apparently just being silent, Yitzi's question shows just being silent does not work automatically, right? So, like how you know how do I have to do this? Okay, I'm gonna start importing the questions into the chat. Uh, and if there are more, then we can always add more. Okay, this is gonna take a while because the questions uh are long today.
SPEAKER_01Reminds you, I said another question. Yeah. Um, I'm wondering when we say even the Aveal, like would the same thing also apply for Russia?
SPEAKER_08Uh okay, that's a good question uh for me to add to well, it depends on whether. Hold on a second here. Yeah, did I type that yet? No, I okay. I'm gonna I'll make a new question for that one. Um Lon, so this is 10 and 11 and 12 and 13, and then I'll add 14 and see if it lets me add this. Hold on. 14 is is this limited to an avil? Uh or can it work for someone worse, like a Russia or Casil?
SPEAKER_01Right, and just to add one more thing, maybe that if the PUSTIC is serving as a warning to people, like for it's not an advice for the Aveal, but rather it's an advice for people not to make a mistake for the Aveal. Wouldn't it make more sense to apply the warning for Russia or for more dangerous characters? It also applies to them.
SPEAKER_08Okay, so this question is especially pertinent uh if it's a warning to others. Uh let me just copy and paste that into here and then uh are you guys raising your hands for more questions?
SPEAKER_11I have another question.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_11Um, yeah. I don't know if we already asked about this, but is it possible to say Otam Stipostav? Is referring to someone else blocking his lips?
SPEAKER_08Yep, you're the third person to ask that question.
SPEAKER_11Nice, okay.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. Great. Wait, what do you mean by well because the the normal way to read it is that both of them are talking about the uh the avil, but then the other possibility is that Otim Svosov is a completely different person who's not an Aveil.
SPEAKER_11Well, I'm saying I'm saying someone stops the Aveel's lip.
SPEAKER_08Oh, no, that's not possible. You can say so, okay, so no, you can't say it even that. Yeah, you can't say that. I don't think that'd be Otem Svosov. Uh it wouldn't be his own lips. It would be like Ma'atim, or I don't know exactly how to say it, but uh, I don't know. Whatever. Yeah, uh Arya.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, I was gonna ask, um essentially, I mean, I'm a I'm assuming there are like different types of fools, and you know, I know when you when I first asked my question, um, you know, Evil, you know, they they want to you know seem smart, but at the same time, like, you know, um, it's also possible that like they they may also want to seem smart by by talking. Right. You know, because that's what I'm gonna say. Right. So my question is assuming we're talking about the whole, you know, this whole puzzle of an uh an avile, I guess my question is on the second half of the puzzle meaning, would he even be considered an Aveal at that point if he's like block I'm assuming blocking a leftist more than just silencing yourself? So I guess that what's the I guess we ask I guess the question is gonna boil down to like what's the relationship with the two of the puzzle. But I you know, I don't know.
SPEAKER_08Are you is your question about like if a if a guy if this is talking to the avial and if he is implementing this, then is he still an avile? Or is he asking a different way? Yeah, yeah, basically.
SPEAKER_09Right. So it sounds like at least from the second half of the puzzle, it sounds like he he's not an Aveal anymore.
SPEAKER_08It's uh it sounds like well the second half of the if the if the second half of the PUSIC is talking about the Aveal, then you have to remember to put in the words Yekashav. They'll be considered a nav. So I do think that you can still be a a Mishlake fool who is doing an action that will make you consider something or that will make you become something, but you're still that that person. So I think we'll go on that assumption for now. But you did raise another issue that I wanted to mention. Oh, yeah. I want to give a uh for those who need a working definition of a veal, I'm just gonna give Ryan Mosquitz's definition. Uh, I guess, okay, so this is this working definition of a veal. And again, you don't need to make the idea of contingent on this. Um, but the working definition of a veal, according to Ryan Moskowitz, is someone who makes decisions based on uh on surface level perceptions and thinking. Okay, I guess I'll add short term, I mean that's kind of implied decisions based on surface level perceptions and thinking. So it you could say in in uh a superficial person. Okay. Um, so that is a working definition. Do not feel obligated to be beholden to that. And then I'll I'll mention just for honorable mention, uh, because uh Mosha Rosenthal mentioned this, is uh this is Rabbi Moskowitz's definition. And then uh and then Mobim's unique definition that no one else says, okay, uh definition, is a skeptic. Okay, and he says that it's because it comes from the word if you'll come from the word Ulai, which means maybe. Okay. But uh the only the mobim holds that. Yeah. Okay, so let us now have our thinking minute, a full minute of thinking.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Seth, you're up.
SPEAKER_10All right, I'm gonna go crazy. Okay, thank you for the the preface. All right. So I'm gonna take Maharish as being active, and that he's actively keeping other people quiet so that maybe another person could be heard, as if he's directing the conversation and he has enough knowledge to discern what which part of the conversation is meaningful and worth listening to. Where an Otem Svatov is somebody who picture someone puckering or squeezing his lips together, nodding up and down in understanding, as if he's contemplating what's being said. He's got the deeper understanding of what's going on. Uh-huh. I got this. I got this. So it's two different ways that they can uh seem to uh be smart.
SPEAKER_08Okay, so but it sounds like you're saying that Avil is not just seeming smart. It sounds like he actually is a good listener and actually has knowledge to be able to evaluate the conversation. Or are you saying that he's trying to no look? You're saying he actually does that, right?
SPEAKER_10Well, I don't know that he actually has the knowledge, but he's like, oh no, no, no, just listen to what that guy's saying. Oh, yeah, yeah. Let's just let's just uh let him speak.
SPEAKER_08Okay, you be quiet, you be quiet. I've seen people do that move. So so you are you saying though that this will that this will work? Maybe okay. If somebody is is bold enough, yeah, it's interesting. Okay, so ultimately just make sure I get the second one. Otum's faster if someone who's con who is silent uh in a a way that makes him seem pensive. Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_10Uh yes. Let me just see if I can get the video. I can't get the video. So picture putting your lips together tight and then shaking your head up and down. Aha, yeah, got this. Scratching the chin.
SPEAKER_08If you are gonna take this approach, I still feel like I need to know is this gonna work or is it gonna fail? And and what are the parameters? Because, like, okay, I look uh the my example of the first category that um that uh comes to my mind is I've seen people try to run classrooms. And um, you know, as we know, there are people who are actually good at facilitating discussions where it brings out the ideas in what people are saying, you know, and like people there's actually an exchange of ideas. I've seen people, teachers in high school, do a thing where they're like, they're going through the motions of doing that. And like, oh, you should, you know, like let's hear what you have to say, and let's hear what you have to say, or and they'll even like write stuff down on the board, but like they're not actually facilitating real thinking and real like meaning of minds, you know. Um, but that does not seem to work. So I I guess my big thing I I need you to take a stance on is is this working or not? I can't have a maybe because the puzzle is is is delivering this point. And also, who's the audience? Like, you know, I think that's that that's the next point.
SPEAKER_10I don't have the audience part, but okay, I think somebody who has enough confidence to pull it off will pull it off because people respond to confidence, not necessarily content.
SPEAKER_08Okay, so if they have the right, if the fool has enough confidence, so then the next question is who is this for? Because again, I don't think that Shlomo is encouraging fools to do things that are harmful for themselves or others.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_10So I don't think it's for them. I think it's for us to watch out.
SPEAKER_08Okay, all right, fine. So then that's fine that game. Yeah, okay, fine. Okay, so that that that is uh the missing piece. Okay, so so this is a warning for us not to be taken in by these two brands of um of uh what's the of uh manipulation. Yeah, yeah, uh these two types of um types of image manipulation, uh self-image manipulation, uh manipulation uh that fools will sometimes uh uh utilize. Yeah, okay, that's a good that's a good idea then, right? So in other words, so the mistake, okay. So the the common mistake, you know, the the the common denominator is that the the the aveal is mimicking what a chacham or a navon does. And um and we we shouldn't uh we we we should pay attention uh uh to the to the actual thinking and content, not the forms.
unknownGood.
SPEAKER_08All right, that's a that's a solid idea. You know what I forgot to do? I forgot to just review the with the working definitions of Chacham and Navon. Okay, so working definitions of Chacham. Sorry. So you've got the um this is gonna bother me. Working definitions of Chacham. Okay, so you've got the um the mainstream can't type mainstream mishlayc definition is uh someone who is knowledgeable, okay, because uh received knowledge, all right. Whereas working definition of Navon is uh an independent thinker or someone who can derive new knowledge. Okay, so that that's the Chacham Navon, that's the classic uh di uh relationship between the two. And then Rabin Moskowitz's definition uh uh or chazal's definition uh is someone who sees the consequences. And then Chazal's other definition, or this is I'll credit to the person I know Benzoma's definition, is one who learns from everybody. So that actually fits really well with Steph's idea because this Kakan is seeming like he's someone who wants to learn from everybody because he's he's facilitating this whole dialogue, uh, right, but he's really not actually wanting to learn from everyone, or he's not listening to them. You know, that's another thing also I've seen people do is seen seen people, let's say, like again, I I've seen teachers do this, taking like as if they're having like a discussion where they're listening to all the students, and then they just don't take what they say into account, you know. Um, so that's that's uh another uh you know deception. Okay, good. I like this idea. All right, uh, I'm just gonna post these in the chat and get them get them out of the way. Uh okay, Isaiah, you're next.
SPEAKER_11All right. Um, so the way I'm thinking about this is in the first half, it's kind of like extolling that's right, words, the virtues of silence. And it's like even an evil will be considered a hotum when he's silented. And I think like Neveal, as opposed to someone who's just like simple and a veal, people kind of know. I think is a Neveal. Like or like it it might be like a trait that you can tell. But regardless, like like a person who doesn't know very much in an area, like, will be considered a thought if he if he silences himself, if it's like visible that he's seen, like not talking over people and like making himself quiet so that he will like listen to someone who knows more than him. So someone who blocks their list and like makes the habit of like being quiet when they're hearing um like knowledge from others and being a listener, um will become an like will become an offer.
SPEAKER_08Sorry, sorry, I just missed were you skipping to the second half or not skipping, were you going to the second half? Okay, sorry, I just totally missed that. So say one more time.
SPEAKER_11The first half is saying, like, when a when when in you when silence is such a great thing that when when someone sees an aveal silence himself, they're considered like a test map person. Um and if you follow the path of like using silence to listen, you'll become a novel.
SPEAKER_08Okay, so you're saying that it's yeah. So so you're saying the the Yachashav is not added to the second half. Or you're saying it is, but it means like it's not I'm not saying it's I was saying it's not.
SPEAKER_11I'm saying it really is a novel in the second half.
SPEAKER_08Okay, right. Or like you'll become an app. If you if you actually embrace this path of silence, uh silence and listening to others, um, then you will become an actual novel. Yeah. Okay, so I guess I I like both haves independently. I guess my question on both uh on the whole thing is like like give me one second. It's not even I maybe maybe you are already answering this because you said the theme is extolling the virtues of silence, but it does seem like this is in two ways. I feel like just to explain uh this is not a good question, but like I do feel like I need a little bit more connection between the two halves.
SPEAKER_11Yeah, and then it's kind of funny because in the first half I'm saying it has like a repeat pacement, like silence is known to be this good. And the second half is just saying, so like we should see is that good, and we should do it. Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_08So I I have I have uh an answer for you, uh, which is that that um an evil uh doesn't actually value Kochma, okay, but he wants to be viewed as wise. Okay. So the thing is is like, you know, Mishle is giving him this one in as a Lolishma, okay, that if he practices silent listening, okay, uh people will think he's wise. Okay. So then Shlumu is counting on the the Aveil doing this and actually starting to become um to become attached to Chachma in a way that makes him naturally practice silence, and that will ultimately lead to his development. Okay, in other words, this is this is a rare developmental course for the avil. Most Aveelim are close to Musur, so you can't really tell them anything that they're gonna listen to. Uh, and that we've seen many, many times, you know, the the rebuke is not for the mus for the avil. But every avial wants to be viewed as smart. And if you tell them, hey, if you stop interrupting and like you, you like you know pretend to listen to others, people will think that you're smart and he'll be like, oh yes, now people can think I'm smart. And as he does this, there is a hope that he will actually start to realize how ignorant he is and how much this other person knows, or that maybe other people can have good ideas, and then that can actually get him on track. And then the second half is like scripting out what the ultimate like culmination of this Mita as leading such a is. How's that?
SPEAKER_11I like it.
SPEAKER_08Okay, it might not be the only way to answer the question, but I think it's a good good pairing for your idea yours. And that was one of the things I was thinking when I was reading. I just didn't start off the way you did. Uh okay, good. Uh Arriel, you're up. I think Ruffy has something. Oh, Ruffy, okay, yeah, sorry.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, no, I also I think I was thinking very similarly to Isaiah, so I don't think I have to like read the whole thing, but I was thinking that specifically the actual subject of the Pasuk is speech. That's like the entire subject. Um, and specifically, I don't know if you're gonna like this because it's a little bit more specific, but I was thinking about like in what situation would someone be considered I like more having more chachma or you know, having more understanding if they're silent. And I was thinking specifically if they're like being, you know, insulted or something like that. Because I feel like okay, that's good. Yeah, like I think like in like a you know, discussion setting, like sure, but I think like specifically the hardest time or one of the hardest times to actually say silent is is if you're being like attacked or if someone's saying something that isn't true. And so I think that with this specific situation, it's saying that even someone who is actually in a veal, um, will be considered like that, and that's where it is with Isaiah. It's like that's where the idea is.
SPEAKER_08So you know you know what's really interesting here? Not not to um uh take your idea in a different direction, but I have a direction that your idea fits in really well with. Uh, and I'm only mentioning this because uh Ruben Peskin mentioned it last week. He reminded us of the Rambaum's definition of Khacham, which I'm just gonna add here, which is um which is someone who follows the middle path um ethically, right? And is, as Ryan Musk would say, evenly killed, right? So that's a different kind of chakam. Now, I don't know if Navlin fits in, which is why you know I'm not I'm not sure if this plays out totally, but like there is definitely a whole genre of statements of Khazal and in Mishlay of not responding to insults. You know, that's like one of the things that that um you know, people were insulted and um and uh don't insult back, you know, show me karpasum ain't shivin, they listen, they hear their their shame and they don't uh they don't uh retort, you know. So that I I think that that does make sense. And it it does cause people. See, that's interesting because that does cause people to instantly have a certain respect for you because everyone knows how hard it is to not say to not talk back, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. And like, so that's what I'm saying. Like, even if he is genuinely in a veal, that he still will have that stance. So it's telling us like you can be, you know, a middle of the path person and then have an even greater level of, you know, whether it's for if you want honor, which you know, that's a whole nother discussion. Yeah, um, but yeah, just how people perceive you, and then also in the long in the long run, it will be better for you because that's a you know, in your job, you like maybe you'll get promotions because people know that like you'll actually be open to, you know, and just growth and all that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, yeah. Okay, that's good. Yeah, yeah, I like that edition. Okay, uh Ariel, you're up.
SPEAKER_09Uh yeah. Okay, so I'm still having difficulty, you know, relating the two halves, but uh but we'll we'll see how it goes. Um so okay, so I think I think you know what what the last couple sentences that you had for Isaiah, yeah, you know, where like he might be on a development uh developmental journey uh to getting you know getting out of you know the state of Veneville.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_09Um I I was thinking I I I I think my idea may lead to that end as well. Okay, sure. Um, you know, I you know, I think I you know, I was trying I'm trying to understand like how is it in general um when someone is silent, you know, they uh you know they're they're viewed as a chakam. You know, uh you know that you know that that that is that that is a reality. I'm not I'm not gonna explain the how, but you know, but um but but you know that that that is you know normally when we see people, we do see, oh, if he's silent, then like he is someone who, you know, there's some sort of uh you know mystery behind him and he may be a chakam in the specific area or whatever, but you know, he's um you know, that's why he's can he may be considered a chakum. You know, however, my tension, you know, the question that I want to answer is how is it possible that like you know, you know, he is still in uh he's still in Aveal, at least in the second half of the FASEC. So maybe you can say that um, you know, there there is a tension. I think there's a tension, you know, between the veil. On one hand, if he's if he does speak, you know, like an Aveal does want that immediate, you know, gratific gratification of you know seeming smart. So it's like a conflict. On one hand, he he may know that being silent will maybe perceived as being smart, but at the same time, him talking, he may think him talking is also will make him smart. You know, which which is very which is it's it's like a it's like a paradox. I don't really know how to explain that. But maybe for the second half of the PUSAC, you know this avial, he maybe he's not like a full-fledged evil. Maybe he's more of like on the on like the right spectrum of trying to grow out of it. And ironically enough, if he does engage in this behavior, he he may actually like like surpass become you know an appeal state.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, yeah, that is that is does sound very similar to what I was uh developing with uh with Isaiah there. Yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_09Um yeah, yeah. Now the difference between I wanted to also understand the difference between you know um him silencing himself versus blocking his lips. Yeah, it's kind of like the same thing. Like how would you even how would you even notice the difference from an asset perspective?
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_09Um yeah, I I still don't know.
SPEAKER_08Okay, I have an answer that for that, but I'll I'll save it for for now. But that's a good question. Um, you know, I'm gonna uh I hope it's okay with Yosef and and and Yeshua Avital. Mosha said he has to go uh after an hour, so I'm gonna go with Moshe first. Yeah, go ahead, Moshe.
SPEAKER_05I can't appreciate that. Okay, so I want to connect this to the previous Pasuk. So that's what the comment is referring to.
SPEAKER_08Let me actually just bring up the previous puzzle because I don't know if everyone was here when we read that. So previous puzzle is Chusich Amarav Yodea Das, one who withholds his statements knows knowledge, and a someone who's sparing in speech or in spirit is a man of understanding. Yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so before I get into the idea, Yi Hashev, I think, means he will be considered, meaning over time he will become a chahon. Okay. Okay, so this is how I want to understand it. So I think the Hadamina is saying that silencing yourself is really just a simon or it's an expression of a chahon. And therefore, even if an Evial, a fool, chooses to actively silence himself, that won't turn him into a chat. Okay, so so you it will you're saying it's just a sign and it will not actually turn into a meaning um actually getting to that idea, but they speak generally they only speak when they need to. I mean, I don't want to develop all the different ideas there, but the point is we notice that a fafarm only speaks in certain situations and generally they're they silence themselves, but a uh an ideal following that um will not make him lie. Okay, okay. And I think the mastana and the finish is saying that uh what silencing yourself does um is that and specifically like actively silencing yourself, it um forces the Evial to rethink his initial thoughts and decisions. And and by doing this repeatedly, it will break him out of his, I guess, habit of being an Eviel. Okay and will force him to think longer term and take more things into consideration to eventually become either a chhaum or a novam.
SPEAKER_08Okay, good. So in practice over time, uh this will actually promote uh promote uh chacham development. Yeah, and just just to talk out the Havmin a little bit more here is that generally speaking, most things, if you pretend, it does not make you gain the skill, right? If you pretend to be a I don't know, like a competent chef, you know, and like you you wear the hat and you do all, you know, like it didn't work if you've seen Ratatouille, like it doesn't work, you know. Um, so um, but in this case, it actually does work because it forces your mind to exercise the you know the the the actual uh thought processes and self-restrain processes that promote actual cogma. So that that's a good uh good good call. Yeah. Okay, anything else? I think it's a good good shot.
SPEAKER_05I think that's good.
SPEAKER_08Okay, good, good. All right. Uh all right, um uh Ario, do you you had an answer for your thing?
SPEAKER_09No, but I had a I had a couple other thoughts, but you can you can give an answer if you want.
SPEAKER_08Okay, so uh just one answer, and this is this is a floating answer. I'm gonna call it a answer slash floating maneuver, okay, which is that uh silencing oneself to me implies selectively, okay, whereas um sealing one's lips uh implies as a default, you know, like you like we I think the closest thing we'd say for the first one is you have to bite your tongue. You know, if someone is never talking, they're not it's not constantly biting your tongue. You bite your tongue when you want to say something and then you hold back, you know. Um so I think those that that is just an option for how to define it of um, you know, you'll get even in the words, silencing yourself is like as an alternative to speaking, you know, you're just speaking, you're silencing yourself, but keeping your lips sealed is like you're just never talking. So in terms of your idea, yeah, yeah, then I I do think, and again, I don't know if this is the only I don't think this is the only way you can go, but like when the Aveal starts off, he might either because he is inconsistent or because he um he can't control himself, you know, sometimes to silence himself and sometimes not, but he'll get enough of a taste of the like, like, oh, like I'm actually like learning from people, or I would if I had said that out loud, I would have been wrong. And then eventually he decides, okay, I'm just gonna shut up and then like you know, like let people who know talk more, and then he'll actually like start learning. So it is a development.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, yeah. I was uh I was thinking kind of you know similarly, where uh like the analogy that I was thinking about was like, you know, like if someone who is like normally like an aveal and he just like can't you know keep his mouth shut, yeah, you know, um, like if you know, let's he has a meeting with I don't know, I don't know, with a group of people, and like you know, he in in that scenario, he may not necessarily want to say anything dumb, otherwise he'll get fired.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, you mean I got I gotta say an anecdote, let me turn off the recording. Oh sure.
SPEAKER_09So how would he be considered a nubone then? Like what mean what's it how what's the meaning on on the surface, like you will be able to say that. Okay, good question. Good question. Okay, so how is that that's the I'm that's what I'm struggling with.
SPEAKER_08The question is is why does this does only the second half result in Navun? Right? So I this is not a full answer, but like I do think that that um give me one second.
SPEAKER_09Unless you say I don't know, like they're I don't know, it's kind of like a cop-out answer, but like yeah, I feel foolish for saying this, but so then then why don't you hold on to it and be silent?
SPEAKER_07No, I'm just joking, I'm just joking. Okay, let's say you let's say you have to ego. Yeah, you're gonna be. I was making a pun, I was joking. Oh, okay, that's good. Okay.
SPEAKER_09I just mean that like unless you say that like he he maybe he's in an environment that not everybody knows him. For which half? The first half or second half? For both. For both. Uh-huh. Meaning meaning maybe some maybe sometimes look look look, it's possible like the guy has to talk. Like, like that the guy, you know, may maybe maybe like sometimes foolishness can be perceived as like comedic sometimes, right? But if he's overall like silent, like that does give like a like like a certain you know um you know quality to the person. Like if he's specifically silent in certain situations, like that does kind of emphasize an uh uh an air an area as opposed to you know him just being foolish in all instances.
SPEAKER_08I'm I'm not really getting what you're saying. Let me let me go to Yeti first and then I'll come back. Yeah, Yeti.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, so just in terms of definitions, if Chakam is someone who knows things who's lomed me koladam, and Nabun is someone who's lomade davar mi toh d'avar, yeah, then this is a little different than the idea of Maharish versus Otem, um, but kind of similar where Maharish is someone who's like about to say something, and like you can tell in conversation, you know, they're about to say something, and then you know, let's say they know they're following the through for whatever reason, they stop themselves short. So in that case, that person, because he is in the at the end of the day, he's listening and he's not talking, he's gonna be gaining more knowledge, you know, if he's remembering what's being said, whatever it is, but he doesn't have the perception of someone who's deeply thinking about what's what's being said and understanding more and getting more insight through his own thought into what's being said. But if someone's a potem svatsvasav, meaning he's not even considering speaking, what his what his action is is an act of listening and pondering what's being said and trying to see where it goes. So by definition, that's an act of a Navun, which is a mevindavar mitochdaver.
SPEAKER_08Right. And so so so that's interesting. So I the way I'm not hearing you, the way I'm understanding the phenomenon you're talking about is not that Otim Svasov actually produces like trains you in the skill of of uh of of Vina, but that it creates the space where you're able to do that, and it also has to build on the Khacham thing, right? In other words, like like if someone just is silent, like that I don't think automatically makes you into a Navon. Right? But it's the it's the person who has already uh started training himself in the the basic maneuvers of listening and then dials that up once even more, will create the space to become a novel. Again, I like I don't I don't see a causal thing where it automatically makes you a novel.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think this goes back to what Moshe's idea was, where it's like you're giving somebody a tip of how to appear a certain way, but when yes, kind of fake it till you make it, but actually true. So if somebody is in a conversation but acting as a macher ish, so then they're by definition not creating the space for themselves to do novel-like actions. But if you enter a conversation with uh with the perspective of I'm just gonna keep my mouth shut, especially with people wiser than them, etc. So then that I don't know if it by definition makes them a novel, but it definitely sets them up where in a in a way it does, where they're in your mind, if you're if you're not thinking about saying anything, so like kind of as a default, at least hopefully a person's thinking about what's being said. Yeah, I guess it's not directly like it's absolutely causative, but it definitely leads a person along that path.
SPEAKER_08Right. Yeah. That that that part I can I can I can get on board with. Yeah. Okay. Uh yeah, Ariel, you had something?
SPEAKER_09Yeah, actually, I I I I think I want to add on to this. Um, you know, I I thought I thought of the difference in silence versus blocking. Okay. Silence means you're you're you're you're staying quiet the entire time. Meaning you're not even talking at all. So that that is that is a flaw. That's actually a flaw because there are times where like you should talk if you have something value of something valuable to say. But I think the second half of the puzzle is saying that, you know, you're generally quiet, but through your understanding of the topic, you have something valuable to say. That's when you should be talking. That's when you have that, in fact, that's when you have to talk. You're obligated to share. Because if you don't share, then then you're you're you're limiting the potential growth of the environment that you're in. So the difference of the difference in blocking versus silence is blocking it is kind of like a filter of what you should or shouldn't say. But silence is almost like you're you're you're you're really sh going silent just for the I don't know, the the perception of you being a cockom.
SPEAKER_08I mean that one means that like that's yeah, I think that so I I I agree with the distinction you're making. I have a hard time reading that into the Pasuk though. I would need I would need to see proof that because Otim seems to be first of all, in isolation, even if we didn't have the comparison, Otim seems to be lips are sealed. So I don't I don't see why lips being sealed wouldn't so I'll tell you, you know what does mean selective? Yakar Rua, sparing in speech, you know, you know, or or or rare in speech, you know, or you know, which is another translation of it, or Husseh Amarav is holding back, all of those seem to allow for speaking. Otim, do you tell me how someone who's going like this can be speaking? So I just I just don't see it in the words.
SPEAKER_09Yeah. Right. Well, yeah, I was using that.
SPEAKER_08Go try though, but no. Okay, let's go to US.
SPEAKER_09Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I I think first, um just contextualized by the previous POSEC, it seems to be that first POSEC is um is trying to identify um is trying to identify the like positive phenomenon of like the normal the normal um track and and how that plays out in the um active property. But I think that the this POSUG is actually presenting that um is how that comes out in just effect alone, uh, to a more fundamental idea. And I think both Pseukum are speaking to a broader idea, um, which hold on for a second, I don't think this is so off the rails, but it's I'm that I'm taking a step back a little bit. But I think when you look at language, um language is intentional and expresses internal states. And I think that um it lends itself to it's a power and and therefore, but but if it used in its ideal way, um it should be intentional. And and because it because the thing it does is it expresses intention and and is through um is through is a person's method of communicating internal states, like ideas, emotions, etc. And so I think that um what it's showing in the first plastic is that like a a true Kakam is going to be very sparing with their words, they're gonna be concise and they're not gonna speak a lot because um because ultimately they recognize the power of and the and like the space they occupy socially with that. Um and so and so being making your words worthless um is like using like a chainsaw instead of a scalpel, right? Like even if you want to make a good joke, if you're quiet most of the time and then you strike with a really good joke, and every time you talk, it's the funniest thing in the world, right? Even in that framework, silence is actually a better default. Um and and then all the more so in areas where it matters much more, like like in uh conversations about um where things are either practical or philosophical or whatever. Um you give your words more value by making them scarce and by making them reflect value every single time. And so it's better to um it's always gonna be better to stay silent when you're not, you know, sure. I mean, not always, but but a lot of it.
SPEAKER_08Right. Yeah. So that's if I'm if I'm hearing you correctly, so that's interesting that it's not saying that Gom Avil Mach rich Chacham be Hashev because he's gonna become a Chachum, or people's gonna think he's a Chachum in general. It's like that even the type of speech that an Avil does is gonna make there's gonna be a certain uh like Chachum-like effect of him exercising restraint.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, let me just uh let me finish from saying that I want to get to that part. Yeah, so I think that the this part, so the first person is much more strong in terms of the it's related to the chakam. This is kind of saying the GOM is saying that it's all is that it's so fundamental to speech um and and its nature that that um that there is a perception of a person who's more quiet and says contentful things, even if it's like very basic, right? That there is something, uh there is a meda there that is that is perceived by other people, that this person is okay, that well, this person is only, this person's not wasting their words.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00And that is perceived by other people as intelligence. Um, and I I think that that it's showing that fundamental to your like the space you occupy uh socially and like in you know the linguistic community, that um that when you that when you are more conservative with your speech, it's gonna give a certain perception. And I think even you could say the idea is that it's going to make a person more conscious of their speech, uh, that it will promote development, but I don't think that's the point. I think the point is much more about the fact that um the fundamentality of language and intention in it, you know, and that and that you're gonna come off as intelligent because um because it is a social activity that that's gonna involve other people and and being and following the nature of language is going to ultimately lead to more success within uh you know the linguistic community.
SPEAKER_08So uh I'm gonna I'm gonna register a question, but I actually don't want to dwell on this just in the interest of time. So just where I would I I like the core idea, but I'd like to see, you know, how do we read this into every part of both uh Pasuki and And uh such that we get all the nuances. Uh, you know, I I think that's that's where I would want uh to see more of an idea here, like with the um especially with the first half being the positive attribute in its you know purest form, and then going to the eveal, but then also kind of hearkening back to the Navun, which is kind of like the Ishtavuna, but not really, and you know, so that kind of thing. But I don't want to dwell on it just because I want to make sure that we have uh time to do some of our right Abital, I don't know if this is your Yitzi, but uh you your household is up. Yeah.
SPEAKER_14I just have like um, I don't even know if it's a fully baked idea, but like I think most of the pieces are there. Okay. Basically, like even a fool who silences himself, and I think it has parts of like moshas and different ideas, but even like a fool who silences himself, in some ways, like by other people, he is considered a khacham. Like he has like a certain amount of knowledge because in some ways, like, okay, even if he is a fool all the time, like it seems like he's able to quiet himself sometimes. And that is like in some ways, he has um, I guess, like aspects of like chachma because he is able to like quiet himself. Um and but on the other hand, when you go even further, like a person who, like a regular person, like we usually talk about how Misleid is talking to the average person, but somebody who not just not just like kind of I was reading in a little similar to how you were saying before, like once in a while, like decides to silence himself and hopefully that becomes more of a pattern. But this is somebody who has really set up a system of like blocking um his lips in a way that, or to the extent that other people consider him some somebody with understanding. And because of that, I think like the outcomes of that is that you're somebody that people um come to when there's something really to figure out because they know you've been listening and not just sporadically, but consistently. Um and that as a general rule, um the perspective or like what you have to say when you say it is going to be from this place of generally being um somebody who like doesn't speak.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_08Okay, that's good. And I actually want to reread a halaq that we read last time, which I think is fine because there'll be a review for half of us and for all the people who weren't here, they'll they'll uh be hearing it. Um when we read the Ramams about silence, and I think that now we can really appreciate it. Uh, because you know, last week we were really talking about restraining refraining from speaking. This is really more about silent silence. Um, so I just want to reread this. Uh, this will help everyone here. Um, so this is in Hilvos Deus 2 uh 4. Leolam Yarbe Adam Bishtika. A person should always increase in silence, which I used to have an idea what that meant. It's a very interesting phrase, right? Because silence is a negative. So increase in silence is just a weird way. Like you'd say, reduce your talking, but increasing in silence is treating silence as like a positive quality. You should only speak about something that is a matter of chachma or a matter of practical needs, right? Literally bodily needs, okay, but needs for your life. Amru Al-Rav, Tamirubino Kadosh, they said about Rav, the student of Ribiru Ananasi, Shalosach sikhabitella koimav. He never spoke idle chatter all his days. Zohi sikh's rov koadam, that's the majority of people's speech. And even when you're talking about things that you're you your physical needs, lo yarbia adam devarim, you should not be excessive in words. This is what the Khachamim commanded, saying, uh, the more a person speaks successfully, the more words a person multiplies, the more he brings sin. They say, I didn't find anything better for the body than silence. Same thing with words of Torah and Chachma. Yhu Divriha Khacham me'atim the inyana him rubim. The words of the Chachim should be few, but their content, their their their you know, can their ideas should be many. Vahuchitzivu chhachamim va amru, this is what the chamim commanded saying, Lola Tamida V Dirachara, a person should always teach his students in a concise manner. But if the words are many and the ideas are few or small, harzo siklos. This is foolishness. It says in Kohelas that a dream comes in a multitude of uh concern, and the voice of a fool is in a multitude of words. And last one, siag l'hachma shtika. A fence for Chachma is silence. Therefore, a person should not be quick to respond. And he should not speak excessively. This is what Shlomo says, uh says the words of Chachamim are heard gently. Now, the reason why I wanted to read this about Avital's thing is in order to be silent, you have to know how to do all these things, and that makes you more thoughtful about everything, you know. So, like, like this is just, I mean, this is not just about Avital's idea, but this is how exercising this Mida will actually make you more wise and understanding. So, therefore, people will correctly turn to you, assuming that you know more. Also, and and then what Avital said also is you're listening more as well. So, I think it it works out according to you know her and others. Okay, Seth, you're up, and then we're gonna go to Mefarshim.
SPEAKER_10Okay, um, just real quick, O Tem is more like to stop up, to hold back a leak, a flow of water, air, what have you. So, with that in mind, um, if we take the first half of the Pusuk as talking about speech, I want to make the second half of the Pusuk talking about emotion. So, in the first half, if there's a fool who shuts up, at least he doesn't look stupid. So maybe he looks wise, but at least he doesn't look stupid. But then we have an O Tame, somebody who's holding back an emotional outburst. I guess in line with what Rifke's comment was by not reacting to a slight, and he's basically people interpret him as a guy who has control, who can read the room, who understands the social situations, and so you look more highly on this person, like someone who controls his emotional outbursts.
SPEAKER_08Okay, good. So that that is what I was looking for for uh for Rivki's idea for you know making both of them be a certain like uh perfection of Mitos. Uh, the only thing that I and this is not even a question of uh this is just an open question here. I just wonder, is there a usage in Tanakh of a Navon that would refer to that quality? You know, I definitely hear the idea in isolation, but I'm used, I'm accustomed to Navon being Chacham, I know is either an intellectual perfection or a moral perfection, or even like a skill perfection. Navon, I'm only used to hearing as a intellectual thing, not but it's it would be nice to find uh I'll tell you yeah, the Plusuk right before the car ruach.
SPEAKER_10If you read it as the car ruach, somebody who's a cool cucumber, yeah, ush to know right okay.
SPEAKER_08That that that could work, yeah. Okay, I did not look ahead of the Mufarshim, uh, but let's uh let's just work on a couple like we usually do. All right, so let's do Monsusa's Davi first, which I did not translate yet. Gam evil machrish, mishiukal hashtik, gam es ha evil shloyosif ladavir evalto. Wow, that's very different than how we were reading it, okay. Someone who is able to silence even the fool so that he doesn't continue uh speaking his foolishness. Okay, ha machrish haze, this silencer, will be considered a chakram. So this really is talking about the example that I gave and didn't record. Uh, you know, but uh okay, fine. Um uh I mean that was not a fool in the in the case I gave, but okay. Uh Dabr Gad Alasa, for he has done a great thing. What a weird interpretation. I mean it fits into the words, but not not the uh way I would assume. Otim, and he says, Hasosim sipsihaivil. Wow, okay, who said this? Uh Isaiah was asking if if this works. So apparently the Mesuz David agrees with you, Isaiah. One who seals the lips of the fool. Okay, Rotzalomar, ha mahtial oso mi mamar mi maamarav, one who who who s uh causes him to cease from his statements, saying his statements, uh Yikare Navon uh is considered a Navon Vakafel Hadavar Bamiloshanos, and Shlomo repeated uh the idea in different words. Okay, so that is fan fascinating. Okay, so so the summary here is that if you can shut up a fool, then you will be considered uh wise, wise and understanding. Okay, so the question is like why will you be considered uh you know, why would you be considered a huh-hom and nav, right? Um okay, so for example, um what if you are just really scary, right? And you intimidate people so that they don't talk. Right? Like that doesn't seem like you're gonna be you're gonna be like a a haum or a nav, you know? Like it's just a what what's the uh and then also like the the second question is like like what's the main idea here? It's just a weird weird puzzle. You know, and and like obviously you can see the flow from the previous one, but the previous one I get it's saying that you are going to become have this quality here. Yes, F?
SPEAKER_10So so maybe it's like when you're you're talking with a lot of people who have very different ideas of the world that are really stupid and weird, but if you don't have enough knowledge to be able to to put them in their place with facts and things, even if you you know they're way off, you're not gonna be successful. But you have to know how to shut them down and you have to have the information within you, and that knowledge within you.
SPEAKER_08Okay, so you're saying that this is a certain you're answering um the first question by saying that this is you need a certain type of knowledge in order to be able to even pull this off.
SPEAKER_10Right.
SPEAKER_08Okay, so answer to question one is is given the nature of fools and what they say, you are going to need a certain type of knowledge and skill uh in order to be able um to pull this off. Right. So, for example, I mean, as a as a good example of this is um, you know, on the internet there are a bunch of fools who post comments and and things, and most people are not very good at at like getting them to stop. And any attempts that they do just makes them spout even more foolishness. Um, but sometimes you get, I mean, there are a lot of clips of like, you know, the types of people like, you know, Ben Shapiro owns so-and-so, you know, uh owns uh uh you know a college lib, you know. But there are people who like are very good at like just or or or like Tuvia Singer with like missionaries, you know, like there are people who like are able to kind of see through all the trick or Socrates, like see through all the tricks and nonsense and manipulation and rhetoric that the fool has and be able to like like disable it, you know, uh or uh to neutralize it, you know. Um, and so that does require uh a Chachma. And it's considered a Chachma because like Sad was saying, you might not have you know, you might not have the knowledge that this Aveel uh claims to have, okay, but you can certainly you know uh you know show him up and stop and shut him down. Okay, and then the example again is Socrates is the perfect example that he says all the time, I never claim to have any knowledge, but like he knows that this guy doesn't know, and he can he can actually show that. That's really interesting. Yeah, that's interesting. So I guess a an answer to the second question is um if you attempt to s to to silence a fool, you'd better, you know, um you'd better know what you're doing and be able to emerge as someone who looks like a Chacham. And the reason why I'm saying that is not just because our Pasuk is is uh is saying Chacham Yi Hashev, but this does fit into the Pasuk Mishlay, not talking about the Aveel, but talking about the Ksil, which is uh so you have got the Al Tang Xilki Ivalto, Pentishfe Logamata, don't respond to a fool according to his foolishness lest you be equated with him also, and then aneksiel kivalto, pen yeah chakamenov, answer a fool according to his foolishness, lest he be a chachum in his eyes. So that's a qu a contradiction, but in order to be able to solve it in any way, not to solve it, in order to be able to implement it correctly, you need to be able to do both. You need to be able to respond to him in a way where he does not emerge looking like a Chacham and you don't emerge looking like a fool, right? I'm just gonna type that down. Uh type that out is that uh this is 26, 4, and 5. Um, like in oops sorry, like in 26 4 and 5, if you are going to respond, you need to do so in a way where he doesn't emerge looking like a Hakan even in his own eyes, and you don't emerge looking uh emerge looking foolish like him. Okay, good idea. All right. If anyone else has anything on this, then uh good. And if not, then we're gonna move on and then we'll wrap it up. Yeah, Rifki.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm also wondering, I like this approach, but I wonder if we can also say, like, in a more like I don't want to say like condescend, like not literally condescending, but like kind of just you like be like, yeah, like you kind of like play into it just to like you know placate it. I'll not kind of do it.
SPEAKER_08Right, no, that that would be a way of silence. I mean, sometimes that that does uh that does work, you know. And it yeah, like I think sometimes when you double down, exactly arguing with it makes them feel they need to be more defensive. Yeah, that's that's a good point, right? Right, yeah, okay, good. Okay, let's do Rabin Yon and then we'll then we'll stop. Again, I haven't read this yet. This is a club translation, so I'm just gonna translate it on my own. Come El Mahresh Khacham Yhashiv. Baala says ata el ha veal. Ah, there you go. It's coming to give advice to the Aveel, La Hachrish to be silent, Vlishmoa and to listen, ki im Hakrish Yakhrish, Nicholas has a reference. If he is certainly if he is silent, lo Techashiv lo lakotserbina, he will not be considered deficient in understanding. He'll be considered a chhacham. Uh, it says about the Mita of Khacham, Nimsa ki derek hachakam lahatos ozun lahakrish vlishmoah, that it is the way of a chhacham to incline his ear and to be silent and to listen, not to just reveal his uh what he's thinking. Kmochkas of Ozun Chachim Tvakesh Das. It says in Mishlay 1815, the ear of the Chachamim uh listens to knowledge or seeks knowledge, I mean. Through this Mida, he will learn Chachma and gather its produce. So that's what that's what I was saying about how this will actually make him into a chakam. Otim svasav, someone who seals his lips, Yachhashiv Navon, he'll be considered a Navon, Kimidas a Navan, Kashavit Ladabir, Lohagi Daito, that when he desires to speak and to share his opinion, because people like to hear themselves talk, Yiskur Svasav, he will ah, that's interesting, he will close his lips, and he'll he'll restrain his spirit from answering until he, after deliberation and thought. In other words, um, so let me just type this out here. So um, so summary. So first half is like we were saying, um, that you can advise an Aveal uh that if he wants to become a ha-ham, uh he should uh act like one in this way, um that will not only make him appear wise, but will eventually make him wise. Okay, then the second half is talking about someone who um who wants to share his opinion, okay. Uh but since he knows that that people like to hear themselves talk, he will be suspicious that that that's why he's sharing his opinion, uh, and he'll deliberate and think before speaking. So this is also going with uh what um what Seth was saying, what Rifki was saying about the uh about Novun being an ethical self-restraint type quality here. Yeah, that's interesting. So and also what um uh also similar to what Seth was saying about the uh controlling himself from an emotional outburst. This in this case is not emotional outburst like reacting to an insult, but but an emotional outburst uh masquerading as an intellectual contribution, right? Uh so he'll be suspicious of himself that way. All right, that's good. Um, I also want to really quickly read the Mi'iri. Um okay, the Miri actually combines both of them. So this will we'll be Yotte our doing both of them here. Uh so you do a Shirovha Dibur Margio Lash and Ladaber Taos or Shigia, O Dover Tafel, Odava Shiimsa Ehubonesak. So it's known that uh um that excess speech habituates the tongue to speak uh with error or mistakes or something uh unimportant or something that contains harm. Umrah, it says in an abundance of speech, then uh offense will not be lacking. But say amar, and regarding this, he said, Shahayodea Das, that's someone who knows knowledge, rotulomar Hamaskiel, someone who is intelligent, Khusech Ammarav, he will sorry, wait, is that what it said? Koseh Spasov? I thought it was Amarav. Yeah, Khusek Amarav. Okay, so he's uh he's accidentally misquoting what he's paraphrasing. Um he will hold back his lips, um miladabir, and and hold them back from speaking. Only according to need. So that's not absolute silence, that's holding back. So to a man of understanding, a person of understanding is sparing in ruach, meaning sparing in speech. Kilifami karaha dibor beshem ruach, sometimes uh divor is called ruach. Um, he brings a bunch of proofs. Okay. Um then he says, he also said that even a fool who keeps silent is considered wise. Not meaning that people will erroneously consider him to be wise. But everyone knowing that he is a fool, mahazibn also bhacham, the uh will hold him to be wise in his silence. Because he's silent out of fear of Arabs. That's an amazing idea, right? They know this guy's a fool, but they see him self-centering because he doesn't want to make a mistake, and they'll be like, oh, that's a wise thing to do. So they're not, there's under no allusions here. There this actually is a chokmah. Zehu chachma, this is a chokma, like the chachme mussar say, Shamru kishitsar ha musar, hachek bhishika. When you're lacking musr, then uh strengthen in in silence. Minimize your words and you'll minimize your errors. And the second half is a repetition. And even though this is advice telling you to uh minimize speech in every area, it's possible that this is alluding in particular to learning chachma. Um uh clomar, should beoso dorishha chokhma. I think he means philosophy here, but we'll see. When you're seeking chachma, lo yehe nikpatz lahashi. No, maybe it's all chachma. You shouldn't be hasty, hasty to respond. You should listen carefully. Should incline your ear to hear and your heart to receive, your mind to receive. Umr achacham, adam mi oznalanafo. Uh, it says about a person that a person's portion is from his ear to his soul, the chelko mileshono lizulaso, and another portion or another half is from his tongue to another. What does it say here? Person's portion from his ear is for himself, oh, and his portion for him, his tongue is for others. Interesting. What does that mean? Does he explain? First step of Kahma is silence, second is understanding, Zakirasa, third is remembering, Haraviz Pulasa, fourth one is enacting. Rotalamar Hahanhaga Kfiha Mukashmi Mena, acting according to what you saw from it. Bahamishi's Limuda, fifth one is teaching, Rotalomar Hashpaas, so Lizulaso, teaching others. I was raised all my days among the Hamim, and I didn't find anything better for the body than silence. Who can uh Kinyan bin Tavin Sashello Fanaha Hamosha His bar. Okay. Yeah, so his his um his idea here was just gonna read the first part again. I'm just gonna summarize it here. His idea here, actually here. His idea here is that summary is that silencing silence is a good way to prevent errors. And even if a fool who everyone knows is a fool practices silencing himself, people will consider uh consider that to be a level of Cachma, um because they see that he is going to minimize errors. Yeah. Okay, good. I think that's pretty self-explanatory, but uh, and he didn't go into very much detail about the other parts. Okay, so this is a good haul. Um, I am going to really quickly review. Um, Seth's first idea was a warning to us to not be taken in by people who who exhibit the types of silence that we see of Chachaming, whether it's the silent coordination of uh of other dialogue or silent pensiveness does not mean that they're actually a Chacham, so don't be taken in. Isaiah's idea was that um that uh combined with my idea and uh Rubina uh who was no Rubina Yonah's idea, yeah, is that um that it's like a lolishma that if an Aveal is silent, people will view him as a Chacham. So that's how he gets in the door of like, oh, I want to be viewed as a Chacham, but then actually practicing that will make him listen more and also you know uh clamp down on what he's gonna say more, and then he'll eventually become a chacham. And um and uh and then we didn't quite get the Navon part for that. Um yeah, uh, and then Rifki mentioned that that might also be about uh being silent if you're insulted, not necessarily in the in the area of learning. Ariel had this approach here about oh, so that was a similar approach, but and Yitzi had this idea about um stopping yourself from speaking and then allowing yourself to listen. But then once you totally go silent and just give yourself over to whoever, whichever Khacham you were talking, that allows the space for becoming a Navon. Um oh yeah, Arya had this idea of OTM is a filter, and I like the idea, but didn't like the reading. Mosha Rosenthal said that over time he'll become a Khacham. And the Havmin is that acting like something doesn't just make you that, but in this case, it actually does. Um, as we explained, Yosef was talking about how um people who value speech and understand what it is recognize um how you know valuable it is and will be sparing in it. And um and people will recognize that even if a fool does this, then then the fool has a certain uh esteem for the value of speech. Uh Avital said that um right, that people will see that this is a Midah that is in common with Chacham, and they'll recognize that even in a fool, similar to the Miri. Seth had a different idea, which is uh first half is holding back speech, uh, and then the second half is holding back an emotional reaction. And those are two types of uh perceptions that you'll have uh people will have of you. Matsuas David said silencing others will make you consider a chachum because in order to be able to do that successfully, you need to be able to outwit the the uh the fool and have a lot of knowledge on your own, even if you don't have the knowledge he's claiming. Uh Rubini Yona said this idea that um you can become a Chaqam if you do this. And um, and then the Navun will also make sure that he's not talking just because he likes to hear himself talk. And then the Miri, we already said. Okay, so that is the end of that, and that is the end of another season of Mishlei. This is the end of the sixth season of Monday Night Mishle. And this is actually technically a Sium on book two of Mishle, uh, that we've now done every Pusuk from 10 through 24. And then after tomorrow it'll be through 25, because I'll be God willing finishing that up with um Monday morning or with the morning mishlay shear. But yeah, it's a lot, a lot of suking. Then we have to decide next year. You know, we've been in the middle of Mishle for all these uh these six years now. We have to decide whether we're gonna take one of the later chapters, like I'm doing in my yeshiva shear in the morning, uh, or go to the beginning of Mishlei. As much as I want to learn the beginning of Mishlei, it would be a very different feeling shear. And I feel like people in this year want the traditional Mishle shear. So we'll we'll decide. We'll we'll we'll have to take a vote and discuss it uh later on. But uh yeah, it's been good learning. And I hope that all of I know everyone has different schedules every year, but I hope uh you know people can uh make it. You know, at least some people hopefully will not be moving to a time zone uh that might make it more difficult. We'll see. Yeah. Okay. Until next time, everyone. Thanks for learning uh for all the year of learning.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. Thank you again.